Not being 'normal'/dropping out of society

[Orwell20]

Most SA sufferers feel a bit disconnected, I guess – like we aren't 'real' people/not living a normal life. But do you think there's an upside? I was talking to someone the other day who said that her work colleague, a nurse, is 35, unmarried, childless and alone, yet "the happiest person I know." She lives in a little flat near the beach and spends all her free time swimming in the sea, reading, pottering about and doing her own thing. This sparked off a conversation in which several people agreed that the happiest people they knew were also like this – people who had rejected the conventional life (partner, semi-detached house, two kids, job in an office). Paul Dolan, a professor at the LSE, said the happiest people (statistically) are women who've never married or had children.

When I was young (15-30), I felt wretched because I had none of the normal things. Now, in middle-age, I've sort of embraced my outsiderness. I have a low status (and low stress) job, no partner, no kids, and yet, weirdly, I'm kind of happy. I have no responsibilities and don't really take my life seriously. I've sort of given up – and feel much better for it. Yet I know several people who've got it all – money, a detached house, three beautiful children, an attractive partner, and so on, yet seem desperately unhappy.

[Dougella]

^ Unmarried, child free women are apparently the happiest group, that's not abnormal it's logical to me!

[Amara 94]

Originally Posted by Orwell20

Most SA sufferers feel a bit disconnected, I guess – like we aren't 'real' people/not living a normal life. But do you think there's an upside? I was talking to someone the other day who said that her work colleague, a nurse, is 35, unmarried, childless and alone, yet "the happiest person I know." She lives in a little flat near the beach and spends all her free time swimming in the sea, reading, pottering about and doing her own thing. This sparked off a conversation in which several people agreed that the happiest people they knew were also like this – people who had rejected the conventional life (partner, semi-detached house, two kids, job in an office). Paul Dolan, a professor at the LSE, said the happiest people (statistically) are women who've never married or had children.

When I was young (15-30), I felt wretched because I had none of the normal things. Now, in middle-age, I've sort of embraced my outsiderness. I have a low status (and low stress) job, no partner, no kids, and yet, weirdly, I'm kind of happy. I have no responsibilities and don't really take my life seriously. I've sort of given up – and feel much better for it. Yet I know several people who've got it all – money, a detached house, three beautiful children, an attractive partner, and so on, yet seem desperately unhappy.

Maybe when you have it all it can become a game of keeping up with the Jonses so having it all doesn’t get rid of insecurities. Like they say being vulnerable can lead to more connection and I think confidence if you know how to deal with your vulnerabilities.

[Dougella]

^ The thing is marriage, children and owning a home are not going to make someone happy if they didn't really want those things, and they add a lot of stress and responsibility that isn't going to be worth it if they're not really happy. It's much better for people to do exactly what they feel comfortable and happy with, and if that includes any of those things or none of them that should be fine!

[Amara 94]

Originally Posted by Dougella

^ The thing is marriage, children and owning a home are not going to make someone happy if they didn't really want those things, and they add a lot of stress and responsibility that isn't going to be worth it if they're not really happy. It's much better for people to do exactly what they feel comfortable and happy with, and if that includes any of those things or none of them that should be fine!

I agree, maybe confidence to truly follow what we want makes us happy. The main advice I seem to get is that I should have a girlfriend, think of starting a family. But tbh I don’t want to start a family.

Also with keto the main thing I found hard about it was peoples judgements of it. I feel it’s very easy to get sucked into peer pressure.

When one is truly confident perhaps they accept their flaws that society may say they should be ashamed of.

[biscuits]

There's also the deeper level of... am I happy because I avoid everything I find challenging and so I have created a very comfortable comfort zone and when I'm out of it I'm very unhappy?

'Happiness' is a strange concept because it's an unrealistic ideal. It's impossible to experience any emotion for long and stable amount of time.

Control is an important element. If we feel in control then we feel happier.

[Mr. Nobody]

It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society

I like this quote, because it reminds us that society is just really a process of adjustment to an entirely unnatural human construct, it's never really going to "fit" or feel natural for anyone

So, I can see how people who live a more unconventional life can perhaps feel a bit more balanced and in tune with themselves,
Because society itself isn't healthy, whole, or sane in any deeper sense.

So, you really have to go beyond it's narrow ways to nurture your spirit and feel in tune with your true nature

I think that living within the narrow confines of what society deems is normal is what's often wrong with people, most people feel confined, limited, shackled or denied by having to try and fit themselves into such a shallow and meaningless path.

[Sunrise]

It sounds like she's living the exact sort of life I'm aiming for. Just being comfortable with yourself doing your own thing. Things like a career/marriage/children genuinely don't interest me at all. Fair play to those who do aspire to all that, each to their own, but I don't think I would find it in any rewarding. I think a challenge should always be rewarding. It's good to challenge yourself but it needs to be something you feel you'll gain something from, otherwise it's not a challenge it's a chore. And speaking from personal experience trying to force yourself to do things you really don't want to do as a "challenge" is soul destroying.

I imagine working as a nurse she gets her challenges through that part of her life, and I imagine it would also be very rewarding doing something like that knowing that you're helping others.

[Appear]

I think this might be one of the benefits of being gay (at least from my perspective). Society's template for life progression is very straight: get in a long-term relationship, get married, have a DFS sofa together... etc. Though nowadays much of this idealised 'life stuff' is attainable regardless of sexuality, people of my generation and earlier didn't grow up with that message. And whether we did or not, different preferences, habits and interests mean we're probably slightly less pressured both by ourselves and others to follow the well-trodden straight path.

As I'm getting older I've been questioning whether I want some of those straight things, like kids (nope) and a DFS sofa (never). But the more I've explored it the more I know I don't. I want as much freedom as I can to pursue the things I want to and a job is limiting enough. I have no plans to add to it. That's not to say children are a prison - I'm sure for many people they aren't. But I'm very happy I can't have any by accident.

I'm also quite aware that my job - no matter how far I progress - won't satisfy me fully. So I'm working on developing things outside of that. My main aim with my job is to progress enough so I can earn more per hour but cut the hours I work - and thankfully (and very jammily) it looks like I'll be able to do this by a little in the next few months. I'd prefer not to work, obviously, but sadly I'm only aristocratic in attitude, not wallet.

[Amara 94]

^Yeah, I have began to question advice, popular self help advice that says men should be masculine and stuff. Not that this connects with being gay. But then being gay challenges advice such as this as gay people aren’t aiming for a heterosexual relationship

[Marco]

I’m in sympathy with the OP. I guess there are very probably a lot of wealthy people who show all the trappings of ‘success’, but are essentially high earning wage slaves; vulnerable, anxious and inwardly miserable. They might even be trapped in a loveless relationship with a high maintenance partner and entitled kids. That’s certainly not for me, whatever wealth or status might come with it. It’s all about finding that balance, I think, in which you are challenged and find a sense of purpose and hence worth, while avoiding situations where you’d be miserable and your health suffers.

[Jen.]

I've never understood why owning a house is usually thrown into conversations like this alongside marriage and kids. Buying a house is generally much cheaper over time than renting and why would anyone want to spend their lives filling the pockets of private landlords if they're able not to? It's weird that owning the place you live is seen as a lifestyle choice and not just a desire for stability.

[Dougella]

^ I think because a lot of people aren't able to save the deposit, even though they could pay the actual mortgage payments as they're often lower than rents as you say. Also the extra costs and responsibilities that come with home ownership rather than renting, it is quite a commitment to make for a lot of people.

[Clumsy*]

^^I think because SA can impact on a person's ability to be successful professionally (passing interviews, holding down a job, building positive relationships at work, networking), which in turns affects what kind of job they can get, the money they earn and in the end, whether they can get onto the property ladder or not.

When one has SA, it's definitely not a choice. But I can see why it is grating to see it mentioned alongside marriage and kids.

[Sunrise]

Surely not being able to afford to buy your own property is very different to choosing not to for lifestyle reasons?

Home ownership is one of the few "normal" things that I aspired to and did eventually achieve, although I lived at home till I was 32, don't have a social life, work stupidly long hours and don't have kids so I was in a better position than a lot of people to save for a deposit. It's probably my biggest achievement in life, although it's not exactly the dream property most people aspire too, my place is worth less than half the national average house price.

I don't feel like it makes me a success though, it just felt like a more sensible option than renting. A rare sensible decision in a lifetime of mistakes. I don't have a successful career, I have a low paid, low skilled job but I work very long unsocial hours and live a very basic lifestyle.

[Dougella]

^ I think that certainly does count as a success though, even if it was also the sensible option for you.

[Sunrise]

It's something I'm personally proud of but I prefer not to talk about it with others. I don't see it as a mark of success or something to boast about because that's not the sort of person I want to be. Home ownership is something certain people look at in quite a competitive way so I think that's why it has been mentioned in this thread. I certainly don't see my home as some sort of status symbol, I think that's the sort of attitude people dislike.

[Dougella]

^ Oh I've heard people discuss home ownership, marriage, and attending uni quite a bit. I once saw the mother of someone I went to school with in the supermarket and she stopped to chat, she was asking about my family and when I told her that both my brothers did apprenticeships rather than going to uni she made a face, like "oh dear". Same as some people really look down on those who live in social housing and you certainly find that out when you live in it yourself lol.
Not that I pay attention to attitudes like that, or think that they should be paid attention to, but they do exist.

As to your last point, I think some people do assume that people can't possibly be completely happy if they're single. Again that's not true at all, but it's a common assumption.

[Sunrise]

I've heard plenty of people judge others by the job they do. I don't think that's something only discussed on here I think it's very, very common. I've met plenty of people who judge the sort of work I do. I think people are actually more judgemental about things like this than they were 50 years ago. We're a nation full of ultra-competitive Thatcherite types these days.

[Jen.]

Originally Posted by Sunrise

Surely not being able to afford to buy your own property is very different to choosing not to for lifestyle reasons?

Yes, this is what I was trying to say. I thought this thread was about "rejecting the conventional life", but not being able to afford a deposit isn't rejecting anything. I suppose choosing to live in a boat or a motorhome could be seen as rejecting the conventional life to some extent, but you'd probably still have to buy those things if you wanted to live in them anyway.

[Candleholder]

Sometimes feel like I beat the system. Other times I feel like I wasted my whole life.

[Amara 94]

^Nanaq I hear about norms all the time but from certain online self help advice and usually older people who feel they can offer me advice.

But I think it really depends which type of people you hang around.

[Bored]

Are a lot of children being brainwashed into thinking they should take a certain path in their life? And become brainwashed adults , but would a capitalist society survive if other ways of life were more widely talked about and accepted

[Dougella]

^ There is quite a bit of discussion going on now I think among the young generation now about living in different ways, because they're just aware that it's much more difficult to be able to afford to buy a house now, and wages have stagnated and if they went to university they're usually leaving with a lot of debt and not necessarily able to get into a well paying job easily. So they're being forced to re-evaluate what they really want, because going down that set path of marriage, buying a house and having children just isn't as simple.

[Scurrilous Rumour]

^
I think anyone doing a degree in humanities or liberal arts type subjects needs to really want to do it, because they might not find it easy to walk into a job afterwards ... unless they want to become a teacher.

[choirgirl]

I agree with Nanuq as far as being able to access your own choices goes. Autonomy is important to me, but so is security, and then there's everything else. To me, finances and interpersonal relationship stuff are actually quite intertwined. I don't think I could say one is more important than the other. In a way, the Devil has got to a bargain basement version of where I wanted to get to probably by the age I wanted to get there (at the latest) but not been able to get further. Since I haven't, I can't judge his view fairly. The nurse's life sounds lovely; a little flat, pottering about with no one to answer to outside of working hours. I would have loved to got to that place by my mid 30s; still with a bit of time to play with to decide, is this how I want to continue my life or do I want something else more? If you haven't got to where you imagined getting to, even to a bargain basement version of where you imagined getting to, it's hard to chuck out the one plan you have.

I wouldn't say I freely rejected the norm; it was more it wasn't accessible to me. Many people probably don't have lives that are a perfect fit for them because that isn't how society or life works, quite often. I see these things as compromises. Try to avoid a bad fit but also make compromises if required. Of course, one often finds out too late.

[Candleholder]

^^That's probably true, but any degree is better than no degree, and maybe it's better to spend three years studying something you are passionate about, rather than just scraping by in a subject that doesn't interest you. I think degrees have become the norm for all workers who are earning anything above minimum wage. I don't have a degree, but if I lost my job today my employers would not look at replacing me with someone without a degree. Even the apprentice at my workplace has a degree. Most of the applicants for the apprentice position also had degrees. I feel as though not having a degree these days is a bit like having left school at 16 in the 1990s. A degree has become the equivalent of three A-levels. It is proof that you can learn and think, not necessarily anything more. It's unfair, considering the amount of debt that goes with them, but that's just how things are at the moment, hopefully not forever. Maybe I've got a chip on my shoulder, but I do feel as though I am a second class citizen for not having been to university. I feel as though my life would be very different today if I had done so, even if I had studied something completely unrelated to my job.

[Dougella]

^ Also education is of benefit in itself, even if you go into a different area of work than what you studied (which lots of people end up doing anyway).

My brother did an apprenticeship first, then did a degree through his employer where they pay for it if you stay working for them afterwards, which he did. So he now has a first class degree, no student debt and a good job.

[Scurrilous Rumour]

^
Your brother has done well.

[Dougella]

^ He has, and he owns a house and he's married lol.