For those wanting help making friends....

[Mochachino]

Note: I'd consider myself a former social anxiety sufferer. After years of actively tackling it, it no longer seems to be holding me back. My online focus is to help others who do want to succeed.

So to get to the point... I'd strongly recommend attending partner dance classes like salsa or ballroom etc. Not only did doing so change my life personally, but I notice how they are very distinct from other methods such as meetups or specialist social clubs. I do think there's some understated pitfalls in the latter two which don't apply to the partner dance classes.

Anyway, lately I've being offering to help others go down the same path I did. Trying to help change lives I guess. So for those interested, you can either PM me, or watch this vlog and then PM/email me. Any questions feel free to ask, including by just replying to this thread. Otherwise, have a nice day.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QElMuW6wJgw

[Chocolate Chin]

I'm much too chunky to go dancing with a partner, I would fear for their lives... I could probably do the monster mash though.

[t1racyjacks]

I dislike dancing, I really do. It's not one of the channels for me....

[Chocolate Chin]

Originally Posted by Legion

I can't even dance in private - I feel the embarassment the inamimate objects around me surely feel.

The only exception is that I used to dance with my dog.

[Mochachino]

Originally Posted by jinny

I used to go to lyndy hop/Charleston classes

I also went to a few monthly vintage nights, which had live music in a 40s/50s retro style

I failed to make any friends

I saw people enough to acknowledge with a 'hi' & a smile, & added a few people on facebook...

but while I saw other people making friends & sitting in groups at the vintage nights, I remained unfriended myself

Congratulations on pushing yourself to do these classes and all, and to socialise. You have my respect for actually taking the risks. Sadly it doesn't seem to have being the best experience, and I doubt I'll be convincing you to jump back in anytime soon. I do have a couple of questions though, seen as you've actually had the experience as well. I hope you don't mind responding.

How many classes did you go to, and over how many months? Was it a weekly class, and one that was a fixed course or a pay-as-you-go class (the much better of the two in my opinion). I mean was it like the class below: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwZrA4RA6oc
If so, it seems quite odd to see in close indivual proximity with these people week after week and only getting a "hi" out of most of them. Forgive me for being inquisitive. It's out of respectful curiosity more than anything.

In such classes, it's virtually impossible for people to group up in their own corners because the whole class consists of people switching partners. As for monthly outings, I never did freestyle dancing or going out until about 6 months of classes, due to my lack of confidence at the time (doing so turned out to be a huge benefit in the long run).

Originally Posted by cordyceps

On paper I'm very envious - these have been goals of mine for years now. But dancing with someone, having to let some randomer touch you, all that eye contact and talking. Bleeeeeugh.

The idea of it is fantastic though. I want to have social experiences and reputation without ever actually having to wade through other people.

I know you wasn't asking for advice, but you did make a valid point regarding touching. I can't speak for Jinny but I predict that if you'd went to a few classes (maybe 2 or 3), you'll be greatly desentisized to the aspect of being touched. It's quite shocking now that I think about it but yeah, once you get on with it, it's done.

As for eye contact and talking, hey that's socialising in general right? Maybe holding out for that wish in your last sentence is the exact reason that you're still waiting for it. It's up to you but I couldn't live like that: the question is why should you? Neither me or Jinny i don't think would you to sit there being envious... if you're looking for friends, is a few lessons of adjusting to human interaction not worth the potential social benefits?

Anyway, I thank you for your post.

[Helly]

Funnily enough I went to a Salsa class a couple of weeks ago for the first time. It did force me out of my comfort zone which was nice(!?) and dancing with random men who I'd never met was something I never really thought I'd do... but I found that it highlighted my insecurities more than anything (that I'm clumsy and slightly awkward) I think it'd be helpful to those with a little more self-confidence and, maybe, if I actually got used to the steps and didn't feel like a bit of a twat it'd be helpful for me too. I certainly spoke to more people there as you had no choice really. I can definitely see why it helped you.

[Mochachino]

Originally Posted by Helly

Funnily enough I went to a Salsa class a couple of weeks ago for the first time. It did force me out of my comfort zone which was nice(!?) and dancing with random men who I'd never met was something I never really thought I'd do... but I found that it highlighted my insecurities more than anything (that I'm clumsy and slightly awkward) I think it'd be helpful to those with a little more self-confidence and, maybe, if I actually got used to the steps and didn't feel like a bit of a twat it'd be helpful for me too. I certainly spoke to more people there as you had no choice really. I can definitely see why it helped you.

As I've already as told you, I commend you for trying to be honest about your experiences and insights. The insecurities you've experienced is actually those experienced by everybody who hasn't done salsa before. Which in a beginner's salsa class would be 98% of people I'd imagine.

I do have to say though, regarding the bolded text, that not only would I disagree with it, but that it could set a dangerous precedent for any reader who is trying to improve upon themselves socially. This is beyond dancing. I know it was well intentioned but personally i don't feel comfortable implying that least confident people should avoid challenging themselves (and therefore be deny themselves a chance of social progress which even you admit is a very realistic benefit). Meanwhile those more socially confident gain the benefits even though they need it less.

A bit like life generally, isn't it?

[Helly]

Hmmm... that's not entirely what I was saying. I definitely don't think you should avoid challenging yourself if you're not self-confident but I also think that salsa might not be the right choice for a lot of people. It really is exposure therapy type stuff that just wouldn't work for some people. While it definitely could be helpful for many, I think it'd probably be better for a lot of people to take smaller steps towards building a bit more confidence before throwing themselves in at the deep end.

I just think if you have really low self confidence, like myself, there's a risk that you'll end up beating yourself up for not picking up the moves or the fear of making a fool of yourself or not interacting in the way you would have liked... which could potentially lead to further confidence issues rather than rectifying them. It's all about the individual really. I like the idea that it could work for everyone but in my opinion it's not a one size fits all approach.

[Chocolate Chin]

SA is such a multi faceted beast. Twelve months ago, if I'd tried dancing, I would have failed, which in turn would have made me regress, and become more introverted. If I did it now, that I am more confident in myself, and have differing views on life compared to my older self, I would probably enjoy it to some degree, as fear of making an ass out of myself is less of an issue for me at this moment in time.

Different strokes for different folks.

[hollowone]

I've recently re-taken-up salsa classes since january after having done it before five years ago. As a social activity, it has a lot to recommend. It's fantastic for talking to to lots of new people and pushing your comfort zone.

I just think if you have really low self confidence, like myself, there's a risk that you'll end up beating yourself up for not picking up the moves or the fear of making a fool of yourself or not interacting in the way you would have liked

May I add that quite a number of people at my salsa class have brought-up similar feelings. Beginners have also told me that they feel quite intimidated when thy see people who seem to be highly proficient. I try to encourage people not to compare themselves to others. I think bringing-up such thoughts and realising that others feel the same can be incredibly helpful.

On the same note, I find I used to feel like a misfit socially; I used to be plagued by my old friend; that cursed thought of being the quietest and most 'boring' one, and that everyone else is a lot more social, better than me etc. This is significantly less so now.

As far as confidence goes, I think it's fair to say that the social, small-talk part can be just scary, if not more than the dancing. As a social opportunity, and as 'graded exposure' to practice small talk, dance classes can be a godsend, as well as a bit of fun in their own right.

For me, I found re-taking-up salsa has reduced my sense of social isolation significantly, as well as that horrible trapped, social dead-end feeling.

I would also add, it's quite a small group, small enough to be manageable for me, yet with enough people to not feel like it's dead, it's just right. In fact, it's is one of the few social gathering type opportunities where I can painlessly have no alcohol, or stick to one drink and not be dying for another one.

[WhispPurr]

I used to go to tango classes.
They were good fun and I did make friends there.
And with Argentine Tango, the lead (usually the male) looks where he's going, and the follow (usually female) looks at the man's top button/ chest - so no eye-contact needed :D

I still found it hard talking to people during the social times unless I was on a confidence high. Luckily they were a friendly bunch, so they made the effort to include me.

But I lost my passion for it and stopped going to classes and kind of cut myself off from the friends I'd made... ... I've been back to the odd class/ social, but have felt awkward/ like an outsider.

[Mochachino]

Originally Posted by Helly

Hmmm... that's not entirely what I was saying. I definitely don't think you should avoid challenging yourself if you're not self-confident but I also think that salsa might not be the right choice for a lot of people. It really is exposure therapy type stuff that just wouldn't work for some people. While it definitely could be helpful for many, I think it'd probably be better for a lot of people to take smaller steps towards building a bit more confidence before throwing themselves in at the deep end.

I just think if you have really low self confidence, like myself, there's a risk that you'll end up beating yourself up for not picking up the moves or the fear of making a fool of yourself or not interacting in the way you would have liked... which could potentially lead to further confidence issues rather than rectifying them. It's all about the individual really. I like the idea that it could work for everyone but in my opinion it's not a one size fits all approach.

Maybe I was a bit hasty earlier. I have a feeling that you'd never actively discourage someone from challenging themselves, that you're just looking out for them, and that's cool. Coming from a decade's experience learning about socialising, your response opens up so many topics I could honesty write pages and pages. It's not a criticism, it's good that what you say can actually lead to a deeper discussion.

But as that might not have being too welcome, I'll keep it brief. Regarding"exposure therapy": facing fears in itself won't lead to social recovery: working your way up towards Idk giving a speech about your embarrassing moments, and doing so naked in front of astadium, and loving it, is not going to make a social anxiety person any more sociable than a person who's taken a few months worth of partner dance classes. Because what the dance class provides is social practise that, wait for it, is virtually impossible to end up in you being ostracised for not being as socially skilled as everyone. The dancing, as many people on this thread have stated, becomes manageable after a month or two. Dancing itself is a triumph you can celebrate. But to me, facing fears is merely the added bonus, not the prime benefit.

The focus should be on what works. And as for "easier, less challenging options"... for e.g agoraphobics who can't go out in public, of course they'd need less challenging alternative. But if your problem is that everytime you try to socialise, you get alienated, overshadowed and intimidated into silence by the more sociable majority (and you just want a chance to practise), where's the "easier" method? I'm asking everyone, because every method I can think of, either will not be effective in the long run (you end up just right back where you started as soon as you stop the activity), or you ostracised.

**** potential triggers ahead******

And I've spoken to a few people this year about their experiences. If you're struggling with dancing, people will help you out and be supportive. If you're struggling socially in an activity where, unlike the salsa classes, people can choose who they interact with, most times people will gravitate towards other social people. This happens in meets up, Google hangouts, mental health support groups... and if that's not bad enough, it's forcing yourself to these places, trying to fit in and at least "try your hardest"... only to be called out with "Why don't you talk more? You should make more of an effort, right?".

Salsa classes generally avoid that and just allow you to get to work practising socialising. And because it's one to one, there's little "overshadowing" and being "pushed aside". Now I can't see any other activity that allows for that. If a mental health support group can organise that exact format mentioned by everyone on this thread who's being to classes, and choose to remove the dance element.... I'd say go there if you don't like dancing. But I haven't seen a mental health group that has done so, and even that would have its flaws, but maybe that's for another post.

Right now most alternatives I see have that "survival of the socially fittest" element. I think being socially rejected and even persecuted and not even given a chance to improve is far more demoralising than struggling at a point where everyone else is struggling, and where if given time, the class will help you catch up. For me, pain-wise the two do not even compare.*

I just think people deserve a chance rather than being knocked back. Helly, you say there are alternative methods that may work (and it's important to know what "work" entails"), and I hope you're right. So if you guys know a less challenging alternative where you can practise your social skills without the possibilities of social hierarchies blocking you, and you don't mind me voicing my opinion, feel free to post it.

Originally Posted by Chocolate Chin

SA is such a multi faceted beast. Twelve months ago, if I'd tried dancing, I would have failed, which in turn would have made me regress, and become more introverted. If I did it now, that I am more confident in myself, and have differing views on life compared to my older self, I would probably enjoy it to some degree, as fear of making an ass out of myself is less of an issue for me at this moment in time.

Different strokes for different folks.

Well since you've commented twice, I'll comment on what you said. As proud as you should be of your increased confidence, I do admit to perhaps needing a bit of help understanding your points. Rather than describe a multi-facet, you've described your own self-improvement and growth. And by "different folks" is that a reference to your presence and past? You're the same person, and now you're leaning more towards my mindset at 21 when I first started salsa. Growing does not make you a different person. You've just evolved, right? Or maybe I misread what you said.


Btw or the other people who've commented recently on this thread, I'll read them and perhaps reply soon. Thank you in advance.

[Mochachino]

Originally Posted by WhispPurr

I used to go to tango classes.
They were good fun and I did make friends there.
And with Argentine Tango, the lead (usually the male) looks where he's going, and the follow (usually female) looks at the man's top button/ chest - so no eye-contact needed :D

I still found it hard talking to people during the social times unless I was on a confidence high. Luckily they were a friendly bunch, so they made the effort to include me.

But I lost my passion for it and stopped going to classes and kind of cut myself off from the friends I'd made... ... I've been back to the odd class/ social, but have felt awkward/ like an outsider.

Originally Posted by hollowone

I've recently re-taken-up salsa classes since january after having done it before five years ago. As a social activity, it has a lot to recommend. It's fantastic for talking to to lots of new people and pushing your comfort zone.


May I add that quite a number of people at my salsa class have brought-up similar feelings. Beginners have also told me that they feel quite intimidated when thy see people who seem to be highly proficient. I try to encourage people not to compare themselves to others. I think bringing-up such thoughts and realising that others feel the same can be incredibly helpful.

On the same note, I find I used to feel like a misfit socially; I used to be plagued by my old friend; that cursed thought of being the quietest and most 'boring' one, and that everyone else is a lot more social, better than me etc. This is significantly less so now.

As far as confidence goes, I think it's fair to say that the social, small-talk part can be just scary, if not more than the dancing. As a social opportunity, and as 'graded exposure' to practice small talk, dance classes can be a godsend, as well as a bit of fun in their own right.

For me, I found re-taking-up salsa has reduced my sense of social isolation significantly, as well as that horrible trapped, social dead-end feeling.

I would also add, it's quite a small group, small enough to be manageable for me, yet with enough people to not feel like it's dead, it's just right. In fact, it's is one of the few social gathering type opportunities where I can painlessly have no alcohol, or stick to one drink and not be dying for another one.

Congrats @hollowone for getting back into the dance lessons. Thank you also @WhispPurr for sharing your experiences. And this is the thing - you've described what i'd expect from a partner dance experience, including a socially fun setting that doesn't encourage alcohol, and where everyone is friendly and quite tolerant of your social levels.

The fact that you at times still feel self-conscious about your social demeanor is perfectly normal. At 10 years, I know I'm socially less skilled than most of the people, though my level of dancing does carry me off. Fortunately for me, I took the class progress very slowly, and at my own pace, so I didn't even see advanced dancers until 6 months of lessons, let alone any freestyle dancing. I think this was before YouTube so the only dancing I ever saw at the time was just people at my level. My biggest focus on the guidance I'm offering would be managing expectations and giving them freedom to accept where they are socially. The tasks I set are not that demanding and so focus on achieving those goals, and having myself as a source of guidance, may take the pressure off.

Now in the online social anxiety community there are those who mention not having chances to socialise with people. Either they try setting up meetups which never materialise, go to meetups and have a single good time but nothing else coming of it, or going to social activities and being the social outcast (not just feeling like one, but actually being alienated and feeling left out). Because of this, they feel there's no chances of finding an activity that does give them a chance.

To be both of you, if I could ask just one question: if you moved to a city one of these people lived in, and let's assume thst their social anxiety was at the same level as yours, would you bet on having just a hard time finding a socially inclusive environment as that person?

I wish a great future for both of you.

Originally Posted by jinny

well...Mochachino, I thought about your questions, which I don't mind at all..

I went to maybe 8-10 lessons at one time in Manchester, then the teachers moved to York, so I went to a different set of lessons, maybe for 3 months or so..I don't remember very well. I did speak to the male partners a little as we always did 'rotate', smiled a little, laughed nervously a little, but when we had breaks didn't really speak.

I did get used to physically touching other people & dance quite well anyway, so that part was ok...but I still struggled to talk to anyone...& managed to dance with no eye contact...just looked at my feet!

I went to another set of lessons which I persuaded my (very unwilling) husband to come to. He hated the dancing, but chatted to most of the people. I really can't make the leap from doing something..to having anything to say about it.

@cordy..you should come with me we could sit in isolation together & listen to the music without actually getting involved

There's a lot I'm learning just from your experience. You're the first social person I've met with a less satisfying experience of partner dance who I feel had stayed long enough to make a valid judgement. So also I do see areas which could have resulted in a better experience, the fact you stuck at it definitely earns my respect. If you ever do think of doing it again, feel free to ask for any advice. Either way, I wish you the best in overcoming your social goals.