Mindfulness No Better Than Watching TV

[firemonkey]

A recent systematic review and meta-analysis of the effects of mindfulness meditation on prosocial behavior found, essentially, that there is no evidence that it works. I find these results entirely unsurprising, and they yet again highlight the need for rigorous research before concluding that a phenomenon is real.

For those of you who have tried it,what do you think?


https://theness.com/neurologicablog/...n-watching-tv/

[jd90]

Load of nonsense imo. But some people swear by it, so if it works for them, great but some people swear by homeopathic medicine. Whatever works I guess. Certainly the stuff I was taught was nonsense, maybe I was just taught wrong...

[Mr. Nobody]

this study and the comments are a bit like saying, I went to the beach with a metal detector today and found nothing,. therefore any attempts to find stuff are pointless and all metal detectors are pointless,

Mindfulness is an ancient Buddhist meditation technique, it's not really therapy and to be honest I was kind of amazed when it emerged on the scene lately as a conventional, holistic therapy technique gaining popularity amongst many diverse groups, even being used in schools and being mentioned very often by life coaches and suchlike too,..

the context this technique was used in was mainly connected with dis-identification with the body and mind,. it's a monumentally radical thing, which the average person on the street is really NOT going to relate to,
the point was, that if a Buddhist monk was practicing this for some time (often many many years ) then the practitioner would be dis-identified with their mind and body,..
it's all about transcendence,

Buddha is the origin of this technique and it was given to Buddhist monks, so it needs to be treated in a certain way,
Buddhist monks and suchlike are not using this expecting results,. like the scientific study seems to expect/want ,.
to expect results etc. is to go completely wrong at the first step.

the idea is that you observe yourself, in everyday situations, but you observe yourself with dispassion, with equanimity, in a completely objective way,
you don't jump in and try to change anything and you don't judge anything, it's all about objective impartial observation, - with no idea of an objective, a goal or a result.

I honestly can't see any way something so intangible and so inward could possibly be judged or evaluated scientifically,.
the two things just intrinsically don't go together, can't go together, ever.

it's a bit like some scientist studying love and concluding it doesn't exist because it cannot be weighed, measured, physically studied or objectified.

[kirbycrackle]

Like many things, including some scientific medicines if you believe in it, it'll work! It's all in the mind, man.

[Tembo]

When I'm in the right mood, mindfulness can really help me relax. I get feelings I don't usually get. It's hard to explain. It's like it activates a part of my brain that's not normally active.
It doesn't work all the time, but it really helps sometimes. Perhaps a placebo effect, but it's worth it for the hour or so of calmness.

[Ajax Amsterdam]

Originally Posted by Vasco Da Gama

...Buddhist monks and suchlike are not using this expecting results,. like the scientific study seems to expect/want ,.
to expect results etc. is to go completely wrong at the first step.

the idea is that you observe yourself, in everyday situations, but you observe yourself with dispassion, with equanimity, in a completely objective way,
you don't jump in and try to change anything and you don't judge anything, it's all about objective impartial observation, - with no idea of an objective, a goal or a result...

Very good post, Vasco. The part I've quoted above hits the nail on the head for me. I use Mindfulness in a very simplistic way which simply helps keep me grounded in the present rather than wracked with anxiety over the future and guilt, embarrassment and whatever else over the past. This stops me from getting overwhelmed and it sees me living in my life rather than inside my head where I used to live.

It's not about making us feel better. It's not about cutting out life's pain. It's more about living in the present moment, which gives us room to address what can be addressed whilst also helping make room for the pain of what cannot be addressed. For instance, being open to what is and being willing to go through its process very much helped me cope with two bereavements within the space of two weeks recently. Mindfulness didn't take away any of the pain, but it certainly helped me work through my own process and it is still doing so.

Using Mindfulness as a way of taking away the pain of life's traumas and problems trips us up right from the start. It goes against what it's all about. It needs to be used to make room for life's traumas and pain rather than as a futile technique to bypass them.

Being mindful, I'm aware of all my moods. All my ups and all my downs. I'm open to all of those things, so deal with them openly on a day-by-day, moment-by-moment basis. I'm not being mindful in order to make myself feel better. I'm being mindful in order to live better and cope better with whatever comes my way. Anyone using Mindfulness in order to feel better is basically just using it as another avoidance strategy, and when they realise that it's not a magic wand that makes life suddenly feel better they reject it saying ''it doesn't work.''

Any 'positive feelings' that come from using Mindfulness should just be seen as pleasant by-products rather than the object of the exercise. They may come, they may not come. Enjoy them if they do; don't fret over it if they don't. What really makes long lasting positive difference to our lives are the things we do with our lives such as living in accordance with our values and working towards the things in life that matter to us personally.

I've used Mindfulness (alongside ACT) for a few years now, and I can say they have both made a massive difference to my life. Has my life been any less painful? Of course not. In fact, I've gone through, and continue to go through, some of the toughest times I've ever had. The difference being now that I live in my life rather than inside my head, and this helps me make room for what I cannot change and it helps me have a bit more clarity when it comes to identifying what I can change. I can then get on with addressing that stuff I can influence. Mindfulness has certainly taught me how futile it is to fight against what cannot be fought. It massively helped me defeat lifelong SA too. I realised long ago that fighting anxiety merely fuels it. The fight against it is the petrol it needs to keep burning. Mindfulness was invaluable in helping me to drop the fight, thus neutralising the disordered levels of anxiety, whilst helping me make room for the more normal anxieties that do still naturally show up.

As you can probably tell by reading between the lines here, I did initially use Mindfulness as an avoidance strategy. A technique through which I was hoping for a certain, specific result. But used that way, it will always disappoint, simply because life naturally includes downs, pain, upset, setback, death, fear etc.... Nothing can spare us from those things. Mindfulness (non-judgemental awareness) can help us make room for those things, though, and making room for them can help us process them better and move on quicker. Our process is less likely to become blocked.

I don't see Mindfulness as something a person needs to believe in. It's not a belief. It's simply non-judgemental awareness. Living in the present moment rather than agonising over the past and fretting over the future. I have no 'belief' in Mindfulness at all. All kinds of utter bollocks come into my head at random times too. As do worries and fears. It's just that non-judgemental awareness of these things mean you simply acknowledge them, then let them go. No trying to fight/reject them because they are 'negative'. No desperation to cling on to them because they are 'positive'.

EDIT:

Just reading the article in the OP I read this...

''As I recently dicussed on SBM, mindfulness meditation is the practice of sitting quietly, focusing inward and on the present, and avoiding mind wandering or daydreaming.''

I found this an example of how Mindfulness is often misunderstood.
Mindfulness is absolutely NOT about avoiding anything, let alone mind-wandering or daydreaming. The more you try to avoid something, the more you have it. Try NOT thinking about a pink elephant. What's the first image that comes to mind? Yes, a pink elephant. Mindfulness is more about making room for what comes in, but not holding on to it. It's about letting it go, not trying to avoid it. It's about making room for, rather than avoiding. If your mind wanders, you can simply re-focus on the present, but it's not about trying to avoid thoughts, it's about non-judgemental awareness of them. I don't see it as ''focusing inward'' either. It's more about being open and aware of things (sounds, sensations, smells, thoughts, feelings etc...) rather than narrowing your focus inwards.

Another thing. You can be mindful doing absolutely anything. You don't have to meditate in order to be mindful. Of course, you can do it sitting quietly if you want, but you can do it anywhere. The last time I actually sat mindfully was maybe last summer or even the one before in the garden listening to the water in the pond and the birds singing. That can be lovely and relaxing, but I don't find it necessary at all when it comes to living mindfully.

[Seagull]

Good post Ajax. Meditating I find impossible, I just end up working through my to do list etc. in my head waiting for the kitchen timer I've set to go off so I can get up, anxiety normally making me jump out of my chair when it does because it's quite loud!

Mindfulness in everyday life for bringing you out of your head on the other hand is a great tool, an awareness that we are not our thoughts, but that we're so often trapped in them, swimming round and round a stagnant pool of crap when we don't have to be.

[Appear]

A review that finds mindfulness has no effects on prosocial outcomes like empathy and prejudice does not suggest mindfulness has no effects whatsoever - it suggests it has no effects on the specific prosocial outcomes considered. You can't conclude it has no effects on things like mood, or outlook, or depressive symptoms, or anything else because those relationships weren't tested. It's a massive non-sequitur to conclude otherwise.

From skimming the article, the writer seems pretty up on his research methods and their potential deficiencies, so I can't understand how he can suggest the conclusion he does (other than it making a good headline). Sure, lots of other meta-analyses that do find effects might have methodological issues, but that doesn't warrant the conclusion he makes. It means better quality research needs to be conducted before any conclusion can be reached.

[Ajax Amsterdam]

Originally Posted by Seagull

Good post Ajax. Meditating I find impossible, I just end up working through my to do list etc. in my head waiting for the kitchen timer I've set to go off so I can get up, anxiety normally making me jump out of my chair when it does because it's quite loud!

Mindfulness in everyday life for bringing you out of your head on the other hand is a great tool, an awareness that we are not our thoughts, but that we're so often trapped in them, swimming round and round a stagnant pool of crap when we don't have to be.

Thanks, Seagull. I'm similar regarding meditation. I have done it, and I often found it relaxing too, but I could rarely ever fully empty the mind. Mindfulness, or at least my understanding of it, means you don't even have to try to empty your mind. You can focus on the moment, but without battling with any thoughts that show up. Non-judgemental awareness lets you simply let those thoughts flow like leaves on a stream. No battle. No starting again and again to clear the mind. Awareness of thoughts without conflict with thoughts. You just gently re-focus on the moment.

The part of your post in bold is exactly how I use Mindfulness. Realising that I am not my thoughts was incredibly liberating. These days, my thoughts don't bother or hurt me at all. I just let them come and go whilst getting on with what's important in my life. The fact that I was stuck, stagnating within my own thoughts for over 4 decades now seems utterly bizarre to me.

I suppose the above is why I also found ACT suited me far more than CBT. ACT being Mindfulness-based and more inclined towards making room for thoughts and feelings rather than constantly evaluating them and being in conflict with those deemed 'negative' as in CBT.

But anyway, yes, you can be mindful anywhere. There is no need to meditate if we don't want to.

[gregarious_introvert]

Originally Posted by Ajax Amsterdam

I realised long ago that fighting anxiety merely fuels it. The fight against it is the petrol it needs to keep burning. Mindfulness was invaluable in helping me to drop the fight, thus neutralising the disordered levels of anxiety, whilst helping me make room for the more normal anxieties that do still naturally show up.

Mindfulness is more about making room for what comes in, but not holding on to it. It's about letting it go, not trying to avoid it. It's about making room for, rather than avoiding. If your mind wanders, you can simply re-focus on the present, but it's not about trying to avoid thoughts, it's about non-judgemental awareness of them. I don't see it as ''focusing inward'' either. It's more about being open and aware of things (sounds, sensations, smells, thoughts, feelings etc...) rather than narrowing your focus inwards.

Another thing. You can be mindful doing absolutely anything. You don't have to meditate in order to be mindful. Of course, you can do it sitting quietly if you want, but you can do it anywhere. The last time I actually sat mindfully was maybe last summer or even the one before in the garden listening to the water in the pond and the birds singing. That can be lovely and relaxing, but I don't find it necessary at all when it comes to living mindfully.

Sorry to reduce your carefully-considered post to a couple of soundbites, AA (so good to have you back, by the way) but these are the parts which most resonate with my experience. Meditation isn't my forte, but as anxiety is pretty much all about the past and the future (albeit sometimes the immediate past or future), being in the present goes a long way towards removing the unnecessary levels of anxiety we face.

I do have to find time to investigate ACT more (it seems like something I should have been doing years ago), as CBT has never worked for me - I don't believe that my feelings are inherently "wrong" (put simplistically, the basis of CBT) and I prefer to accept them and commit myself to managing them. As you say, Ajax, mindfulness is not a cure or a defence against life's pains (nor should it be, experiencing such pain is an important part of life, although I can understand that you have experienced too much of that recently!) but it does help in finding perspective, among other things. I, too, use mindfulness in a very simplistic way - I don't practice the meditation, for instance - and these days, almost unconsciously as I just re-focus on the present when I find myself dwelling on the past or future (I've just been fortunate enough to spend two weeks on an island full of stunning scenery and one can't really help but be in the present when surrounded by nature's wonders).

On a personal level, it's good to see you back Ajax and to hear that you are dealing with your recent sadness; you have been in my thoughts constantly whilst you were away from the forum.