Longterm unemployed and I love it

[sillypenguin]

Ach let's all just lighten up and put the lottery on

[Moksha]

Originally Posted by FraidyCat

I would only define the first 2 as Work. I think Work always involves some stress and pressure and consequences for doing a bad job, even if you love your job, you will still have customers or a boss to keep happy. You will have to perform well or there will be serious consequences.
If you don't do your job well then you lose your customers or get fired, your children turn out poorly, your ageing parents suffer more than they should.

The last four come under hobbies. If you dont take doing them seriously nothing bad will happen.

If AI ushers in a new age, one in which most jobs could be done by machines, we'd have to define work in a new way. Right now we define it as "the thing you do to earn money." But in a society where no one needed to earn money that definition would be obsolete. Maybe work could be re-defined as "the things you do to give your life meaning and purpose." Someone might set themselves the target of reading all Dickens' novels, for example. Learning, teaching, creating and caring for others, those will be the new forms of work, but we'll do them for pleasure and satisfaction rather than money.

[Consolida]

^ Sounds like a Utopian fantasy that would be at least a few hundred years away, if the world hasn't been wrecked in the meantime by trying to achieve such a goal.

As machines and robots increasingly took away jobs, the flow of income would move away from the poorest workers to the firm owners who keep on getting richer and richer. It's unlikely any of these people at the top who have invented these amazing machines are so altruistic that they would be prepared to share their profit with the masses who are spending their time reading Dickens novels or the works or Shakespeare...

I won't continue as I'm getting further away from BP's original post, and am getting myself tied into all kinds of knots, but it does sadly all seem like a bit of pipe dream to me Moksha.

[Moksha]

^^^^^

Oscar Wilde once wrote an article in which he predicted that soon "machines will do all the work" and we'd all be free to pursue other, more fulfilling interests. Yet here we are, nearly 150 years later, with even those in the richest societies working unbearably long hours. Indeed, many literally work until they burn out and have to be propped up with Xanax and Prozac. If anything, work is even worse than in Wilde's day. At least back then you didn't have traffic jams and flashing screens and endless stress.

I don't agree that the inventors would be being unwilling to share their profits though. They'd have to. Not out of kindness and compassion but to avert revolution. Also, if the majority of the population was unemployable and half-starved, they'd have no money to buy anything. That would mean no profits for big business. Plus, there would be a huge swing to Leftist/Socialist parties. You couldn't have a society in which 70% of the population had no work and scraped by on benefits while a minority got richer and richer. It would be unsustainable.

One of four things will happen: 1) We've wildly overestimated the effects of this 'fourth industrial revolution' and things will more or less remain the same 2) So many people will be unemployable that a Universal Basic Income will have to be introduced 3) A huge chunk of the population will be unemployable and left to scrape by on benefits while the rich get richer, or 4) We'll create a whole load of new, idiotic "Bullshit Jobs" to waste people's lives (must google that book - the author was on Newsnight last week). My money is on number 4, though I suspect you're right that this is hundreds of years away.

[Dougella]

^ The interesting thing is though that those people at the top won't have anyone to buy their products and keep them in business if everyone else is left with no jobs and no money. So things are going to have to change somehow and a universal basic income looks like it might be one of the main policies that is brought in. Ofcourse not all jobs can be taken over by robots, so the types of jobs that people have is probably going to change and evolve too, we certainly won't all be left alone to read Shakespeare, I don't think!

[Copernicium]

Does everyone get the universal basic income? Even millionaires?

[Dougella]

^ Yes. They can opt out though, if they choose to.

[Copernicium]

Originally Posted by Dougella

^ Yes. They can opt out though, if they choose to.

Do you feel that there is an income level above which people should feel morally obliged to opt out?

[neilm]

Originally Posted by Copernicium

Aren't you making a judgement here on a person's opinion about someone he knows well but you've never met? Just a thought

You could make that judgement if you like, or you could choose not to. Its up to you , my good man

[neilm]

Originally Posted by Copernicium

Does everyone get the universal basic income? Even millionaires?

Yes, if it was a true Universal Income, everyone gets it regardless of circumstances/wealth/employment status etc etc.

Ive seen the figure of £15000 per annum (including Housing Costs) being suggested. Think that works out at "roughly" equivalent of Minimum Wage.

It would be a massive undertaking to introduce such a thing though, and I dont think theres ANY chance of any major country introducing it in the Near Future.

Id guess if it happens anywhere though itll be in the more Socially Progressive States such as Norway/Sweden/ Iceland etc.

The more Right Wing Conservative societies such as the Uk, the USA, Australia etc would be particularly unlikely to go down such a route.

Its an idea though that will probably gain support over the years, I imagine...

[Dougella]

Originally Posted by Copernicium

Do you feel that there is an income level above which people should feel morally obliged to opt out?

No.

[Moksha]

Originally Posted by Copernicium

Does everyone get the universal basic income? Even millionaires?

I've seen £20,000 a year suggested a few times. The idea seems to be that everyone would receive this as a sort of living allowance. Then, if you can find a bit of paid work here and there, you're welcome to top it up. As neilm writes, it would probably be introduced in places like Sweden first. But if it works, the pressure to introduce it elsewhere would be overwhelming.

[FraidyCat]

Originally Posted by neilm

Ive seen the figure of £15000 per annum (including Housing Costs) being suggested. Think that works out at "roughly" equivalent of Minimum Wage.

UBI is completely bonkers.

£15000 x 55 million adults = £825 Billion per year.

Where is that kind of money going to come from from?

Originally Posted by Moksha

I've seen £20,000 a year suggested a few times.

At that amount it would need more than £1 trillion per year.

Cloud Cookoo land.

[Dougella]

^ The existing benefits budget. The estimates I've heard haven't been that high though, more like £10,000 a year or less than that.

[Moksha]

Originally Posted by FraidyCat

UBI is completely bonkers.

£15000 x 55 million adults = £825 Billion per year.

Where is that kind of money going to come from from?



At that amount it would need more than £1 trillion per year.

Cloud Cookoo land.

Maybe it is right now. I don't think many people believe it could be implemented at the moment (well, maybe some). The argument is that it will have to be introduced in the near future because AI, robotics, etc are going to wipe out most jobs. Self-driving cars, lorries, buses and taxis, for example, will put millions out of work. Or look at self-service checkouts. Who would have dreamed of such a things 20 years ago? Soon, shops and cafes may be fully automated, meaning no jobs in Tesco or Starbucks either. In fact, the only thing machines won't be able to do is care for someone. Governments may be forced to introduce a UBI because AI will leave a huge chunk of the population not just unemployed but unemployable.

[FraidyCat]

Originally Posted by Dougella

^ The existing benefits budget. The estimates I've heard haven't been that high though, more like £10,000 a year or less than that.

Current benefits budget is only £200 billion per year, only enough for a UBI of about £3600 for 55 million adults.

The government would have to find another £350 billion per year inorder to give everyone £10,000.

Where is that extra money going to come from?

[Dougella]

^ It wouldn't be able to start at the level that's being talked about here, it definitely wouldn't be able to be enough for people to live on. But as Moksha says some form of it is going to become necessary eventually.

[FraidyCat]

Originally Posted by Dougella

^ It wouldn't be able to start at the level that's being talked about here, it definitely wouldn't be able to be enough for people to live on. But as Moksha says some form of it is going to become necessary eventually.

If we ever get to the point when AI can do everything for us then everything will be dirt cheap/free , especially if we figure out unlimited free energy. Money wont be needed anymore let alone UBI.

[Rubik]

^ Energy firms with their strangehold on governments will ensure that energy is never free.
They are really going to need to think outside the box in 15-20 years time, when even legal and highly skilled medical roles are imminently being automatised.

[neilm]

Originally Posted by FraidyCat

UBI is completely bonkers.

£15000 x 55 million adults = £825 Billion per year.

Where is that kind of money going to come from from?



At that amount it would need more than £1 trillion per year.

Cloud Cookoo land.

Yes, I agree that its very unlikely to happen any time in the short/mid term certainly for amounts of £15-20000 per annum.

But the future isnt certain and attitudes can change.

And of course we do effectively have a form of UBI operating anyway if you think about it. Its paid to every adult over the age of 65 - The Basic State Pension.

[Austere_Lemur]

OP, I literally feel the opposite! I mean, the ultimate goal (at least in my eyes) is to get a full-time job.

I don't have children (nor do I want them, much to my mother's dismay [my dad's a lot more accepting and understanding]).

I attended Nottingham Uni - two years in a row (I dropped out first time round but was given the good grace of coming back and repeating, but [in true style] messed that up too!).

I landed my first job ever thanks to my Mum and her boyfriend - they work in a fabric company (my Mum is a qualified curtain-maker with a City and Guilds qualification to back it up, so that job was a right fit for her). For me, I hit the jackpot when the company they worked for offered me a job (I'm good with computers and a quick study, so I quickly grew their online eBay store). In short, I had a real good thing going - and I messed it up (in usual style for me!). The employers of that fabric company were really good to me, and really accepting (they had a penchant of employing people with 'difficulties', for lack of a better term! precisely because they suffered from various issues themselves [it was a family-run business and both the managing directors were addicts; thus they liked to take similar people in under their wing]).

The first time I had a really good thing going for me (I knew nothing about fabrics, but I quickly learned within a few months - even the boss came to me and said how impressed he was with how quickly I'd taken to things - and I went and fecked it up).

Having that job was amazing because I had an income and was able to pay my Mum and her boyfriend rent/contribute to bills - and that's the most amazing feeling in the world! I hate feeling like a waste-of-space (which is what I am). But I chucked that job (because I was stupid and got way-too-above myself). I've been unemployed ever since, and I regret every moment.

Yeah, I wish I could go back to Uni and get my degree (I'd be on my third chance, and that's a dozen more chances than I deserve!). Here I am, wondering what I am other than draining other's resources (my Mum is amazing putting me up considering all the rubbish I've put her through). I'd love to be a productive member of society - that's all I aspire to be, at the end of the day (that and pay back all the people who have been so gracious to me).

[Dougella]

^ You are not a waste of space at all! You did very well to achieve what you did in that job and it shows that you have a lot of abilities and strengths and a lot to offer.

[Austere_Lemur]

I appreciate your kind words, but really you don't know me at all! And also I lost that job about four years ago. I'm still an unemployed waste-of-space. Life is grand!

[Copernicium]

Originally Posted by neilm

And of course we do effectively have a form of UBI operating anyway if you think about it. Its paid to every adult over the age of 65 - The Basic State Pension.

Yes, this is what I was thinking about too.

The basic state pension from April 2019 will be £6,718.40 a year.

The full state pension from April 2019 will be £8,767.20 a year a year.

What you receive depends on whether your workplace opted out of the additional state pension (a lot of public sector workers) and how many qualifying years of NI contributions you have made.

You will notice that both figures quoted above are significantly smaller than the UBI figures proposed in this thread.

To make matters worse, the age you qualify for the state pension for both men and women is increasing. It is currently in the process of increasing to 66. Between 2026 and 2028, it will rise again to 67. And further increases are expected.

I am 50 years old and I won't receive it until I am 67. The younger people here shouldn't bank on getting it before they are 68 or older, given the increasing problem of an ageing population. Personally, if I were 20, I wouldn't bank on getting it at all.

So the outlook for a a universal basic income in the UK is bleak.

The above might however be a wake up call for anyone who thinks that the details of workplace and private pensions are just boring irrelevancies.

[Ronnie_Pickering]

Originally Posted by Austere_Lemur

OP, I literally feel the opposite! I mean, the ultimate goal (at least in my eyes) is to get a full-time job.

I don't have children (nor do I want them, much to my mother's dismay [my dad's a lot more accepting and understanding]).

I attended Nottingham Uni - two years in a row (I dropped out first time round but was given the good grace of coming back and repeating, but [in true style] messed that up too!).

I landed my first job ever thanks to my Mum and her boyfriend - they work in a fabric company (my Mum is a qualified curtain-maker with a City and Guilds qualification to back it up, so that job was a right fit for her). For me, I hit the jackpot when the company they worked for offered me a job (I'm good with computers and a quick study, so I quickly grew their online eBay store). In short, I had a real good thing going - and I messed it up (in usual style for me!). The employers of that fabric company were really good to me, and really accepting (they had a penchant of employing people with 'difficulties', for lack of a better term! precisely because they suffered from various issues themselves [it was a family-run business and both the managing directors were addicts; thus they liked to take similar people in under their wing]).

The first time I had a really good thing going for me (I knew nothing about fabrics, but I quickly learned within a few months - even the boss came to me and said how impressed he was with how quickly I'd taken to things - and I went and fecked it up).

Having that job was amazing because I had an income and was able to pay my Mum and her boyfriend rent/contribute to bills - and that's the most amazing feeling in the world! I hate feeling like a waste-of-space (which is what I am). But I chucked that job (because I was stupid and got way-too-above myself). I've been unemployed ever since, and I regret every moment.

Yeah, I wish I could go back to Uni and get my degree (I'd be on my third chance, and that's a dozen more chances than I deserve!). Here I am, wondering what I am other than draining other's resources (my Mum is amazing putting me up considering all the rubbish I've put her through). I'd love to be a productive member of society - that's all I aspire to be, at the end of the day (that and pay back all the people who have been so gracious to me).

I flunked a course at late teens/early 20s. Now my 30s I'm now doing an accounts course at my local college. These things pass and repair.

[Mr. Nobody]

Originally Posted by neilm

Yes, if it was a true Universal Income, everyone gets it regardless of circumstances/wealth/employment status etc etc.

Ive seen the figure of £15000 per annum (including Housing Costs) being suggested. Think that works out at "roughly" equivalent of Minimum Wage.

lol,.. that's more than I earn in a year,.. working full-time.

can't possibly see how that could ever be workable, or ever happen.

[Toxic]

Who the hells going to pay us 15-20k a year just to..be alive

It sounds a bit of a fantasy, I suppose before my mum hit retirement age her disability payment was around that but she was on the highest allowance and got alsorts...but for every single adult?

Hell I'd take 15k and drop my working week to about 10hrs

Sounds great but..also sounds too good to be true

[GoldFish]

Originally Posted by Consolida

I can't actually imagine why anyone who feels healthy both in body and mind wouldn't aspire to someday having a job whether voluntary, part-time, or full time if it means that they can financially support themselves while at the same time contributing to their own well being and perhaps even to Society's as a whole in some small way.

True!!

However, you're on a social anxiety forum, and I would say, people with SA issues, especially long term would find modern day communication requirements hard to impossible sometimes, they would find office politics very stressful and anyone working in the service industries, hospitals, food, retail, support. It's pure stress!! Even for healthy people. Even for Engineers or people in the IT sectors. Any high demand job, high responsibility would be feeling burning stress about the unknowns. Now imagine what that is like for someone who isn't a strong ego and has personality flaws.

I've worked full time for six years in a busy Retail environment, and I've seen the coolest egos crumble under the pressure. I've survived by being a fast worker. That's about it. I'm a keen assistant type of worker, and people like that in a worker. I've seen a turnover rate of about 200% across six years.

My analysis after 6 years is that I truly believe the future should be striving for a 4-day working week or part-time hours as a normal function. Because I believe it's better for people's health.

I believe people doing full time and lots of overtime are likely going to be burnt out, mentally compromised as well. Even if they don't admit, I can see it in their behaviour.

My biggest conclusion is that Managers have it the worst. They are receiving all of the criticisms from their managers and are burdening a heap of stress and are always on-call. So managers need to be strong characters. This is why i never stepped up to Management. I couldn't do it. It'd make me sick.

So it's a rather complex thing to talk about it.

I 100% am on board with the 4-day work week or part-time. However, the problem is, housing just isn't affordable. But I don't think people should be striving to earn more or get 2 jobs just to keep up with a rigged housing system. Housing shouldnt be as high as it is. This requires people to boycott or stand up, people don't. However, it's about what you support.

I would much rather be living to what I think the future should be. I think the future should be affordable housing, fewer hours. More people employed into available shifts. More of a solutions-based, science enthusiastic society. Etc...that sort of thing. However this requires having smart people in politics and smart people who can be solutions-driven. In a capitalist society that's also quite a hurdle, considering peoples agendas are so different to the next person.

[Mr. Nobody]

^good post,.. I'd agree with pretty much all of that,.. from an SA point of view,
but for most / many, working full-time isn't such a tall order,
I work with people who have a full-time job, plus do lots of extra work in the evenings and at the weekend, and they aren't even close to burnt out.
to be honest, I've no idea how they manage it, but I do think, being on the spectrum does make work a bit of a living nightmare,
I wholeheartedly agree that most people with SA should really be on reduced hours / part time,, - I'd love to give that a go.

house prices now are just insane,. but they weren't always,.
when I bought my house just 20 years ago, it cost what many mid-range motor cars cost today,
I think it's just greed that has artificially driven house prices up,
it began in the late 80's early 90's where people would "gazump" other buyers by offering several thousand over the asking price,
this soon became the norm, and I think people selling houses just thought,."the sky's the limit" ?

[Consolida]

@ Goldfish - Good post!

Originally Posted by GoldFish

My analysis after 6 years is that I truly believe the future should be striving for a 4-day working week or part-time hours as a normal function. Because I believe it's better for people's health.

Now wouldn't that be great!

When I started working in Nursing as a 19 year old SA sufferer (accept I didn't know what 'it' was back then) I had to eventually take a lengthy time off work after having what one might now describe as a nervous breakdown. Although the job could be undeniably stressful - I had to sit alone with a young man of 22 as he passed away infront of me and worked 13 1/2 hour shifts - I also found the job immensely fulfilling and hoped to climb a little further up the ladder. If it wasnt for a few nasty colleagues (nasty as in corrupt) that helped send my SA into overdrive I do like to think that I would have coped okay.

When I eventually agreed to return to work on a part time basis everything was fine, perhaps because I was also on a different ward with a much nicer Manager. It embarrasses me to say this, but I actually think I was very good at my job. And that, I think, was my downfall. The powers that be started to pester me to work overtime because I was reliable and hardworking and unlike a lot of my older colleagues I was childless and so had fewer personal responsibilities. Then, they increasingly started to ask me to add an extra day on here and there until it no longer felt like a part time job. Eventually I started to feel myself unravelling mentally again.....and that was that

Like you say, Goldfish, a 4 day week would be so much better health wise, especially for those of us who struggle with mental health issues. There are so many folk out there who feel like they have literally been thrown onto the scrap heap and yet still have so many talents and abilities. I believe a shorter week would make the world of difference. Less people would be taking time off sick and hence a more productive workforce, so it's a win win, surely?