How can I not be depressed when...

[Appear]

So apologies in advance for the industrial strength self-pity, especially at a time when things are difficult for everyone, but I've been struggling with some stuff for a while and I could do with some non-therapist, non-family-member, non-other-close-person feedback.

My issue is this: I don't see how any sane person couldn't be depressed in my situation.

My situation is:

• I have no current decent career prospects despite a lot of work to improve things and not being entirely stupid (honest).
• I have no prospect of owning a home any time soon/if ever.
• I've ended up in a sort-of relationship with someone that for the first time I would actually want a future with but can't in any conventional sense. Sometimes it feels like he's 'the one' because I tend to think he can't be matched and he cares about me a lot (f*ck knows why), which makes it all the harder.
• I've always struggled with my appearance and my hair is falling out, my skin going to shit and there's probably other stuff on the way too as my body loves to embarrass me. Given that my anxiety pretty much all stems from it and I'm gay and the pressure to look good is quite extreme, I don't know how the f*ck I'll be able to cope with it (I'm already not).
  
• I still struggle socially and don't really have any close friends I can see regularly (but the lovely SAUK people I'm close to I do appreciate a lot).
  

I've started to get out there a bit more (pre-lockdown) but it only makes these things more stark, especially as I always seem to end up getting close to people that are pretty successful in the ways I'm not. It makes me so embarrassed to talk about where I am with things, etc.

Whenever I talk to anyone about this I'm told, 'you'll get there.' But I've been told this for years and still haven't. And honestly I don't know how much longer I can go on like it. Day-to-day I can be okay - even appear chipper - but this is always hanging over me. And sometimes I just break and it's all I can think about (like now, probably).

So, how can I not be depressed? I'm 'right' to be, aren't I?

Slaps/calls of 'wanker' welcome if deemed appropriate.

[newbs16]

Unfortunately I don't have the answer regarding your depression but it would appear that you have many positive things to take from this post.

You've become more sociable recently, you have a boyfriend, some close friends,you've always came across as a funny and caring person, with great clothing and shoes .

I do hope that your depression improves and maybe things become more serious with your man friend in the future.

[Appear]

^ Thanks for your response, Newbs. I appreciate it. Wish I could see things more positively.

But you are right - I do have some good shoes.

[alpha]

I can relate to some of that, i.e. very little career prospects, currently no chance of moving out of my parents' house let alone owning a home, getting older, anyone who likes me romantically I wonder why lol.

Yes I think that being depressed is a natural and normal psychological reaction to your circumstances. But depression does involve distorted ways of thinking. It's the brain's protection mechanism. It wants to stop us from any more feelings of "failure" and inadequacy by encouraging us not to try to achieve anything in the first place. The problem is that it doesn't work and is in fact counterproductive, if we don't try we end up feeling like even more of a "failure" and still achieve nothing.

I think it's our reaction to depression that's important, we have to basically ignore what our brain is telling us and carry on regardless. Also if we're depressed then we're likely to be ignoring or devaluing things that we have actually achieved and done well at. Still it can be hard to gather the strength and courage to pick ourselves up. I'd suggest trying with little things first and working on your thinking so that you can actually recognise any achievements. Not that I'm anywhere near perfect at doing this stuff myself!

[Jen.]

I wouldn't say anyone is "right" to be depressed about specific things. People who have all those things in common with you might not be depressed about any of them. E.g. one man who realises he's balding at 20 will just start to shave it off and not give it a second thought ever again, another might spend the next 50+ years obsessing over it and spending a lot of money and time trying to change/hide it, depressed about how it's not the way he wants. It's difficult to say someone is right to be depressed about something when someone else won't be depressed by exactly the same thing. Your depression might not go away if each of those things changed anyway - with a lot of people it just moves on to something else. Like how people who are unhappy with certain aspects of their appearance and get themselves "fixed" soon find other things about their appearance that makes them unhappy, then continue on with a cycle that never ends. Depression over owning your own home might be replaced by depression about not owning a bigger home, getting into a career you love might be replaced by depression about not achieving some specific aim within that career, etc.

Some of the things that make you depressed are things that others wish they had, e.g. someone might be depressed about living with their parents or even being homeless, and they dream of the day they can rent their own place... someone who has never been in any kind of relationship might be depressed because they long for any kind of relationship, however unconventional... someone who is unhappy with their appearance might give anything they could to look like you. I know none of this makes anyone feel better to hear, but I think it's important to remember sometimes. Maybe "you'll get there" is a pointless thing to say and maybe "one day you might not be bothered by it if things don't change" makes more sense, I don't know. Whenever I've spoken to my therapist about similar things (i.e. wanting to make changes to circumstances to address problems rather than to work on changing how I feel about them) she's talked in this way. I know how difficult/impossible it seems to learn to accept something (or your inability to change it) rather than putting all your focus on changing the circumstances though.

[Appear]

^ See, I kind of agree, but I also tend think that most people need certain things to feel 'okay'. E.g.:

• Personally meaningful/rewarding work
• Romantic intimacy
• Feelings of respect and positive regard from others
• Secure and stable living conditions
• Long-term, supportive friendship
• Feelings of parity with peers

When some of those basic conditions aren't met, living becomes less bearable and people are more prone to becoming depressed. And I'd maintain that life without those things isn't a very nice life at all for most - no matter how you think about it. Obviously different things will fulfil those conditions for different people, so one person's meaningful work is different from another's, yadayada. Yes most people live on a hedonic treadmill where the satisfaction from reaching one goal is short-lived, but I'd see satisfaction of those sorts of wants as different from these more fundamental conditions.

I also tend to think psychologists reduce everything to 'thinking' (which isn't really surprising) without acknowledging that yeah, some circumstances actually are shit and it's not just thinking that makes it so. And we all know some people's circumstances just don't change no matter their best efforts.

I suppose I'm also just frustrated that I've done a lot in the last few years to try and change my circumstances (got a better job, got a second degree while working full-time, started a masters, moved away etc.) yet I'm still really where I was 10 years ago and everyone else is miles ahead.

^^ I think you're right, Alpha. I think my trouble is I'm worn down after years of this and just don't have much hope anymore.

[Marco]

Originally Posted by Appear

I suppose I'm also just frustrated that I've done a lot in the last few years to try and change my circumstances (got a better job, got a second degree while working full-time, started a masters, moved away etc.) yet I'm still really where I was 10 years ago and everyone else is miles ahead.

Appear, I don't think you're worn down as much as you think. I realise your current circumstances seem to you far from satisfactory, but look at what you've achieved recently, and even now you're studying for a masters degree despite your feelings of despair and frustration. You're strong and resilient. Don't give up!

[Jen.]

Do these things make you depressed mostly because you're comparing yourself to others and feel inadequate?

Is your relationship not satisfying because of the way it isn't like the traditional idea of how a relationship should be, or because there are aspects of it that make you unhappy in a way that's completely unrelated to that?

I don't think most people have meaningful work, although obviously that doesn't mean it shouldn't be an aim. A lot of people have the attitude that work is nothing more than a necessity and are more than happy with that. There are a lot of people (I want to say the majority even, but I don't know the figures) who have a degree and their job doesn't even require any degree, let alone the one they studied for, or they have one and can't get a job at all. The vast majority of people under a certain age have very little chance of home ownership until their parents die (and even then, their parents may not even have a home/savings, or if they did it may have been eroded by care costs). If you want to feel parity with peers when it comes to employment, living situation and even lack of supportive friendships... you should, because I think most people around your age are struggling in those ways too. That doesn't mean those things are fine obviously, but I don't think it's being realistic to believe that you're somehow behind or inadequate compared to everyone else. Everyone else isn't miles ahead at all. You've achieved a lot more than others your age in some areas, although everyone's goals are different. Some people wouldn't even want a first degree and would be happy getting married and starting a family as soon as they leave school. I know it's a cliche, but we're not all in the same race and even if we feel we're in the same race as a small number of people, it's likely that we didn't all start at the same time and had unique obstacles to contend with along the way.

When it comes to thinking... I believe it usually does come down to that regarding things that are clearly not shit. I.e. you're a very good looking guy, so your circumstances there aren't shit at all, but your perception of yourself is and a change in thinking is the only real solution to becoming less depressed about that. Changing the way you think about having no money for food, a serious illness, etc, won't make those things better, but somehow improving your thoughts on your physical appearance is the only way out of that. People with significant deformities can learn to accept and even like themselves.

Sorry for rambling and probably being wrong about everything. I just think the answer to your question about if you're right to be depressed about those things is... probably not. But then that's because depression almost always makes no sense.

[Jam]

I really wish I can give you answers or do something that will help, but everyone above have some really great points who are far more articulate and intelligent than I am, and you should really take what they have to say on board.

What I can offer you is, not reassurance or validation, but truths. You have achieved a lot over the years, you've taken huge steps forward and some steps back, but generally your life is going in a direction away from where you were 10 years ago. I know it's difficult to see that as certain situations are still the same. But keep positive by looking at what you actually have achieved. Like, I've been impressed by you, because what I've observed from you over the years is a lot of bravery. Yes not much has change at this particular point, but in you, I now see someone who is capable of making these changes.

I also don't worry about you finding the right guy to be in a relationship with. You have/had this perfect guy in Cardiff who was completely in love with you. And you've had others before him who felt the same way. My point is, you will find someone in the future that you will love and will love you the same. And when you do I'm seriously going to slap you with a massive 'I told ya so'.

As for your looks, I know it's a massive struggle in your life, and again I have no answers. But I got to tell you this anyway... you're a really good looking guy with great facial features, your eyes, lips, smile, and f*ck yes even your nose, are all aesthetically pleasing, going bald and all that other shit you worry about ain't going to change that, your facial features will still be the same. Ok, if you do go bald, hit the gym, beef up, and be the white Vin Diesel. The only thing you really got to be concerned about is that your a midget, but we can't change that, you're going to have to reframe your mind and accept that.

Careers and owning a house, listen, these are common life worries for 90% of people out there. Even people who own a home have the anxiety of trying to keep up with their mortgage each month, everyone is just 1 month of no pay away from losing their homes. So I'll give you that, if you want to be depressed about that then go for it.

Mate, like I said, I wish I could change things for you, because you deserve to be happy. You're the fifth best person I've ever known (you're crazy if you think you'd come before my gf, my 2 kids and Will Smith).

Sorry, sixth best. I forgot about Childish Gambino.

Jesus, how could I forget Rocky. My point is, you're in my top 10.

[Chess&Junkfood]

I'm just going to put it out there for you Appear, but if I didn't have such a strong appreciation for Dolly Parton, then I would be more than willing to spoon feed you whipped cream right now! That's how great I think you come across.

As for my take on your situation, I can of course only go on what you have said previously on here. I guess the reason why I'm stating the obvious, is that I'm not always accurate in what I can remember at times. But I'm almost sure you aren't a burly trucker named Bernard, whose only real desire in life is to grow the manliest chest hair the world has ever seen. But from what I can remember you saying previously:

You are getting closer to 30 and you are in a relationship with a guy who isn't exclusive?

There are other things you have said of course, but those are the ones that have stood out most to me. Although I'm getting closer to 40 myself. And I'm not in a relationship. Whether that be exclusive or otherwise. So Im not in the same relatable category in that sense. But I still wanted to give a sort of flavour to your perspective. And that flavour is the time I had with my friend, and for once in my life, I was truly happy. Because that friendship had the potential to lead on to something more meaningful in my life. But then I talked myself out of that friendship. And now too much time has gone on to change that. All because of the lack of progress in my life that played a big part in convincing me to leave that friendship. But when the dust had settled afterwards, I realised that lack of progress had magnified even further after the friendship had ended.

So I guess what I'm trying to say is, the practicalities of life are of course important. Otherwise, a scenario could ensue, where you say:

Well honey, I know you're feeling cold right now, but dont you worry, this car cigarette lighter will soon be warm.

But so are the feelings you have for someone. Especially if they feel the same way as you. Although if someone isn't going to be fully there for you, and time is starting to pass you by, then I think it's right to bring your life more sharply into focus right now. Otherwise, you might find yourself on the wrong side of 30 and be more than willing to do a virtual tango with a valued member of a social anxiety forum

[Appear]

^ Hahaha. I'm honoured (I think). Though I hate all kind of creams. Can we make it a Peperami or something? Thank you for your response though, Chess - I know what you're saying. Think I need to work out what I really want with that.


^^ Jamminy, I knew there was a reason I loved you despite hating everything you are. I can almost forgive you for forgetting my 30th now, which I'm still crying myself to sleep about. Luckily the tears are only small because, you know, midget tears are.


^^^ Jen - I really appreciate you taking the time for a minor spar and I don't think you're wrong about everything at all. It may have been just what I was looking for.


^^^^ Cheers, Marco. I appreciate that. I'll try.


I can be a bit shit at responding adequetely to more serious stuff on here and always think I shouldn't make threads because of it, but I'm going to try and take all of this on board. You're a bright bunch and there's more of you than me, so maybe you're onto something. Also I think most of you are all really old* so on average wiser.

Cheers, guys.


*Jam especially.

[Utopia]

I don't think it's true that everyone has to have all of the things you've listed to feel content with life, I think this depends on the individuals personal tastes and desires, surely? Some people get depressed where others don't; for some people things come easily in a few areas by nature, and others are more difficult. I think depression can definately be a natural response to a situation, but the reality is most people that are depressed simply expect too much of themselves and others, or they are perfectionists or are obsessed with how they compare in some way or another. The reality is there are pros and cons to any situation, and regardless, even for those where everything is seemingly perfect, they are drawn to the imperfections - there are always imperfections.

I guess what Im saying is there are lots of ways, reasons and causes for feeling inadequate or depressed, and others may look at your life and see things that make them feel envious in some ways but not others, it's all a matter of what the individuals insecurities happen to be.

Anyway, I hope you feel more accepted the way you are soon. My advice, as someone who has had depression on and off for over 10 years now, is to not be so hard on yourself, there are areas of life to feel grateful, and no-one is perfect anyway.

[Appear]

^ This is basically one side of my thinking on it (though far better put than I could manage). I find it hard to disagree with you on most of it.

It's really why I hate CBT, which basically says, 'you feel shit because your thinking is wrong/inaccurate, so change it.' As if it's impossible for anything to actually be bad or undesirable. In my last round of therapy I argued this point a bit and ended up asking, 'If someone with a low IQ felt bad about themselves because they were unintelligent (and we can agree that IQ is normally distributed with some people in that first decile), is their thinking inaccurate?'

I had to 'put a pin' in that.

[Sphinx]

Originally Posted by Appear

^ This is basically one side of my thinking on it (though far better put than I could manage). I find it hard to disagree with you on most of it.

It's really why I hate CBT, which basically says, 'you feel shit because your thinking is wrong/inaccurate, so change it.' As if it's impossible for anything to actually be bad or undesirable. In my last round of therapy I argued this point a bit and ended up asking, 'If someone with a low IQ felt bad about themselves because they were unintelligent (and we can agree that IQ is normally distributed with some people in that first decile), is their thinking inaccurate?'

I had to 'put a pin' in that.

I hate CBT as well as it basically invalidates your feelings and experiences. Yeah there are times most people get carried away with negative thinking, but we're not all wildly irrational.

Far better to accept things as they are rather than trying to constantly fight your thoughts.

[Jen.]

That's why ACT is superior!

[Utopia]

Originally Posted by Appear

^ This is basically one side of my thinking on it (though far better put than I could manage). I find it hard to disagree with you on most of it.

It's really why I hate CBT, which basically says, 'you feel shit because your thinking is wrong/inaccurate, so change it.' As if it's impossible for anything to actually be bad or undesirable. In my last round of therapy I argued this point a bit and ended up asking, 'If someone with a low IQ felt bad about themselves because they were unintelligent (and we can agree that IQ is normally distributed with some people in that first decile), is their thinking inaccurate?'

I had to 'put a pin' in that.

Well IQ is just the skill at a particular type of test, perhaps you would have other areas to feel good about? The brain is like a muscle in the sense that it can become stronger with practice, this is even true in the case of the g factor (the common measure explaining the high correlations between cognitive tests). I genuinely believe that people are varied, with their own unique strengths and weakness and having a high IQ just makes you more unusual, and gives something for people to envy so they just want to bring you down to the same as them somehow.

If there is something you are unhappy about you can either get depressed and feel hopeless, and in the process just put all your efforts into bringing others down, or you can do the healthy thing of working on your self to improve things. This sounds like a depression derived from low self esteem. You need to take on more of whats known as a 'growth mindset' - this is the idea that things are much more mallable than many people assume, and that, over time you can improve. If you want a better body, well even if you dont have one right now, then over 6-12 months you can work on it and improve. Obviously there are things you can't change like your height, but like I said before, people have their strengths and weaknesses. So I'm kind of average height wise, but often notice that I seem shorter than males when out in London on average, I am shy, but then on the other hand, I have a good sense of humour, intellect, and women have said I look 'hot' or 'good' before. So there is a tradeoff. The point about IQ is valid, but with things like that it can improve with practice anyway. You don't seem to have a low IQ as far as I can tell and a high one is just another thing that makes me unusual tbh, and does lead to bullying (probably due to envy/making me an independent thinker with some some geeky interests). You just can't win with people anyway, intelligence and the ability to think rationally are so important in this world - now more than ever - but in terms of gaining admiration or anything, no.

[Appear]

^ I'm not really concerned about my IQ (though I know many would argue I should be) - I was using it as a bit of an analogue for something else I'm concerned about.

You're right - it's better to focus on the things we can change, just like the Stoics were arguing all those years ago. Hard to though.

^^ Yep - ACT is basically the only reason I've made any strides in the last few years. It was originally mentioned in my CBT bitch paragraph above but I ended up leaving it out. Maybe I need to go back to it and really start putting it into practice again.

@ Sphinx - I completely agree about CBT tending to invalidate experiences. I don't really get how therapists can continue to use it (at least in its original form before they started integrating mindfulness/ACT elements).

@ Raks - I know that's true about tending to only compare the positive, but I guess what I'm getting at is that others' lives actually can be more (or less) positive.

You're right though - having some optimism is probably the rub. I should work on it.


Thanks for your responses, guys.

[twosocks]

Thanks for sharing the quote^

[Appear]

^^ Thank you for the response, Nanuq - I'm not sure what to say really other than that's incredibly nice of you to say.

I don't spend lots of time around here these days so feel like I tend to miss lots of forum goings on, but the posts I've seen you make have always been thoughtful and insightful - far more so than my mostly silly musings.

I love that quote, and I'm a bit of a fan of Aldous Huxley (Island especially). I'm going to have to save that somewhere to come back to.