self esteem and cognitive therapy

[threadbare]

Originally Posted by abc2

Is it common for people to think like this at first (I say at first, i have been working on this for a few months)?

yes!!! thinking patterns that have been built up over a lifetime (or at least a good few years) cannot change suddenly. the beliefs we have about ourselves exist for a good reason: not because they are not in any way distorted, but because they have served to provide a way to make sense of often very painful experiences. it is completely natural for them to be very resistant to change. it might be useful for you to give some specific examples of thoughts you're struggling with abc. then maybe some people here can help you out with possible alternative thoughts? i never found it easy at all to 'convert' my negative thoughts, without the help of a therapist. we're not a substitute for that here, and (neither i would say, is self-help), but having access to a few other alternative perspectives might just help the process of neutralising negative thoughts to take root. it took me quite a lot of practice before i was able to challenge the thoughts effectively on my own. and it can still be quite a hit-and-miss affair at times.

another thing i'd say is that i didn't get on with seeing my thoughts in terms of positive/negative, or rational/irrational - it was suggested to me to see them instead in terms of helpful/unhelpful to my goals. i preferred this terminology as it was less emotive. a negative response is not always an irrational or inappropriate response, that's something i strongly agree with you on. and sometimes the language of CBT can be an obstacle to its effectiveness (in my own experience anyway).

[pboy]

Thanks for that perspective on it threadbare, and there was me thinking I'm a stubburn brat cos I simply HATE CBT thought sheets. I remember in the past one of my therapists saying I was "very resistant to the CBT method".
At least I know I'm not alone with it.

Overall I'd say rather than focusing on changing thoughts the best way is via exposure and new behaviour, which sort of creates new beliefs by default if done right.

[hardy]

I think beginners at CBT often confuse what is meant by irrational thinking . It doesnt mean that negative events didn't really happen. its more about your thinking about WHY the events happened . especially any thought that are like >

"negative event X happened because of my bad personal quality Y."

Or " positive event Q cant happen because of my bad quality S."

Or " I cant read minds but I KNOW person X dislikes me because I did action (or inaction) Y"

You can get so used to thinking you know what goes wrong or the "reason" during a social event that it feels completely rational.

I think also that people would understand it better if they put some of their negative thoughts that "must be correct" on a thread here so we can point out the irrationality around it .

[SoftlySpoken1]

"It feels like for CBT to work you have to be open minded to the possiblity that some of your thoughts might not be true, which I am most certainly not. It feels like I have a long way to go until I can even reach this stage. I am not sure how it can help me with my current ways of thinking as I am so convinced that my thoughts are true."

Hi abc - does that thought seem reasonable to you?

Just wondering??

I had CBT for low self esteem - very much along the lines of Melanie Fennel's book

I really believed that I was 'mad' - and that was a hard belief for me to shift - but I got there in the end. My suggestion for you would be to try and work with a therapist but good luck anyway

[pboy]

I think possibly the hardest thing with CBT is being objective. After learning meditation I developed a belief that "no thoughts are true or untrue, theyre just thoughts" and that kinda helped me be more objective with CBT. I still hate it though :rolleyes:

[hardy]

Great- thats an excellent example


quote

"OK then. Many people dislike me and find me incredibly boring due to my lack of personality. That is a prime example of the sort of thoughts I get but I can't see how it is irrational. It makes a lot of sense."

Rational view of the facts . "Few people seem to like me" .

irrational assumed reasons

1) I lack personality
2) I am incredibly boring

these are vaguely reasonable guesses . NOT hard facts . even if several people have said this to your face this is not proof.

and youve missed a whole load of other possible reasons ; some negative and some positives.

CBT shows that it is mainly in the assumed "reasons " that most possible irrationality lies. Even in your view of the actual event there is a somewhat negative bias. " nobody seems to like me" is very different from "Most people seem to take a dislike to me".

I think its important to note that a lot of negative thinking is not really "irrational" because it is based on logical reasoning from your assumptions about how hostile other people are.

[SoftlySpoken1]

Hi abc

I think that what I was trying to get at was that one of your thoughts is:

'I am convinced all of my thoughts are true'

which you seemed to me to recognise was an irrational thought and if you can recognise that one thing you think is not completely rational then there is a possibility that other thoughts possibly might not be completely true!

Originally Posted by abc2

OK then. Many people dislike me and find me incredibly boring due to my lack of personality. That is a prime example of the sort of thoughts I get but I can't see how it is irrational. It makes a lot of sense.

I agree with you that if you are trapped in situation where you are not getting on well with other people that you could find thoughts like these difficult to see as anything other than true. This is why I think you need the support of a therapist. This is a huge challenge to face on your own. No one could do it!

Originally Posted by abc2

Therapists? Not sure how helpful that would be. I don't find someone getting angry at me and accusing me of being lazy and making excuses when I bring up this subject very helpful at all.

I am sorry that you feel that therapists have got angry with you in the past - I know from my own experience - and that's all I can talk about as I am not in anyway trained or anything like that - that I have believed some pretty whacky things and I have been pretty awful at understanding where other people are coming from. I think possibly this is going on for you. Or maybe it isn't - perhaps you have just been to see crap therapists.

I do think you have to want to change and be prepared to try different things for any sort of therapy to work. Certainly I can see how a therapist would feel very frustrated with someone who completely believed all their thoughts were true especially if all those thoughts are completely negative. Maybe CBT isn't the approach for you right now but there are other approaches.

Do you have any positive thoughts about yourself?

If life has dealt you some crappy cards - then I can understand that you would see life through a negative filter. The fact that you are here suggests to me that you aren't happy with how things are and do want them to change...maybe like me you will really have to hit rock bottom before you can make some real changes.

Have you seen a book called Reinventing your life by Young and Klosko - it talks about life traps - sets of thoughts and beliefs about yourself that trap you - one of them is entitlement - and I wonder if that one applies to you? It may not!

Please take my comments in the spirit that they are meant - I am trying to be helpful and wish you well

[hardy]

Predictably threads end when we start talking about actual examples of negative thinking !

This illustrates how hard and frightening it is for SAers to get down to the real core of the problem . They feel much safer worrying about their blushing , spots , eye contact etc!!!

[hardy]

"I agree that "most people seem to take a dislike to me" seems a more reasonable statement than "nobody likes me", but it's still not something that I find helpful. It doesn't change the fact that many people dislike me for lacking in personality and find me incredibly boring. That is what gives me (or at least contributes greatly towards) the low self esteem. I know that it i'm guessing that this is the reason a lot of people dislike me, but it's what seems the most likely reason to me. The fact that an above average number of people dislike me is a fact though, so it can't help me with that either."

Generally people dont like a person who doesn't like them . how many people do you like? how many people do you show that you like ? suppose its the fact you cant show it ( due to SA ) that puts them off . This would be nothing to do with your personality or alleged boringness.

[SoftlySpoken1]

Hi abc...

I really feel for you as you seem to be in an extremely lonely and difficult place. I can see that your belief that you are boring and have no personality is a very strong one and that will be extremely difficult for you to change. But these strong beliefs can actually be changed - I only know this because this happened to me.

I would actually say that the reality is probably more like, you have been very isolated, had a lot of negative experiences and therefore have not had the opportunity to learn social skills. Because of your lack of social skills you have had feedback that has confirmed for you your negative beliefs about yourself.

I saw a psychologist quite a few years ago now and when I stopped seeing him his last question to me was 'have you ever seen a psychiatrist?' That question upset me incredibly and stopped me seeking help for a long time - so I have a lot of trepidation about this but I really want to pose that question to you - have you? and would you consider seeing one?

Good Luck

[pboy]

Does anyone else feel with CBT that, when you are rethinking your thoughts, it gives a basic message that no thoughts are actually true, and so any positive answers you come up with are just as irrational as your negatives?

[mayo1]

Originally Posted by pboy

Does anyone else feel with CBT that, when you are rethinking your thoughts, it gives a basic message that no thoughts are actually true, and so any positive answers you come up with are just as irrational as your negatives?

I definitely felt this way when I started but eventually I started to realize that the way I was viewing things was classic for people with anxiety. Once I joined a cbt group and started doing the TEA forms properly I was able to start to see how I had become my own worst enemy and eventually got to where I am now feeling so much better about myself and life in general. Countering your thoughts and building new ways of thinking is not easy but I am finding it to be well worth the payoff.

[I'mGonnaBeAWheelSomeday]

Originally Posted by abc2

I am having great trouble identifying positive thoughts too. Is it supposed to make me feel better knowing that although I am completely unable to initiate any sort of meaningful social contact with people, it's not all bad, at least I know how to dress myself? I just cannot compare such minor positives to the negatives.

You say there is nothing good about you, I would have to say you seem pretty resilient ***8211; no matter if you seem to be getting it completely wrong(this actually makes the resilience a bit more impressive). I remember you posting on this before a while back, but you seem to stick it out even if you feel you are unlikeable which for me would be very hard. I mean most people find it hard enough if they are dumped or something but you believe you are unlikeable by all + never seem to make much progress but keep plugging away ***8211; that takes some resilience.

I hope I am not being patronising there but the few times in my life where there were no friendly faces around I just couldn***8217;t take it, within two weeks I had quit whatever I was doing and was back in my avoidant little world again. Though I think I am overly sensitive, I could probably do with building up a bit more resilience.

Living in your situation and with your beliefs it would be very hard for anyone For example put a successful person in a social experiment and gradually make them believe they are unlikeable keep this going for a while and don***8217;t let them make any progress, who knows how they would end up. Sticking in there with that belief system of yours is no mean task, for me that is a positive aspect you have.

[hardy]

Quote:
Originally Posted by pboy
Does anyone else feel with CBT that, when you are rethinking your thoughts, it gives a basic message that no thoughts are actually true, and so any positive answers you come up with are just as irrational as your negatives?

Yes, but the biggest problem I have with it is the "no thoughts are actually true" bit. It's not something I believe. thoughts are either true or false.

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No . CBT says that some thoughts are true and some thoughts are mistaken or wrong . But the problem is unless you have hard evidence you dont KNOW which thoughts are correct . You are right that positive thoughts can be irrational too. But thats no reason to reject positive thoughts because some of them MAY be true.

CBT also says that what you believe ( doesnt matter whether its right OR wrong) has a huge effect on the way you behave .
and the way you behave has a huge effect on how others treat you . -------Hardy

[mayo1]

Originally Posted by hardy

Quote:
---------------------------------------------------------
No . CBT says that some thoughts are true and some thoughts are mistaken or wrong . But the problem is unless you have hard evidence you dont KNOW which thoughts are correct . You are right that positive thoughts can be irrational too. But thats no reason to reject positive thoughts because some of them MAY be true.

CBT also says that what you believe ( doesnt matter whether its right OR wrong) has a huge effect on the way you behave .
and the way you behave has a huge effect on how others treat you . -------Hardy

Good points. Sometimes I think people want to overthink cbt. I take it at face value and appreciate what it has done for my life.

[herb]

I don't have time to respond to all these replies but it is good to see that this discussion continues with so many good points!

[mayo1]

Originally Posted by herb

I don't have time to respond to all these replies but it is good to see that this discussion continues with so many good points!

I know what you mean
By the time I check back I get a little overwhelmed trying to answer, like right now lol.

[herb]

LOL, but thx for the support.

[mayo1]

Any time my friend. I hope all is well with you. Always enjoy hearing others cbt tips and hearing about their experiences with cbt.

[herb]

Thanks mate! Just keep doing your TEA forms and you will get better and better my friend.

[mayo1]

Thx for checking in again and I appreciate the encouragement. I am feeling great these days and still doing my TEA forms all the time.

[herb]

Originally Posted by mayo1

Thx for checking in again and I appreciate the encouragement. I am feeling great these days and still doing my TEA forms all the time.

Great work Mayo1
You will never regret the work you put in on your TEA forms, it comes back to you tenfold

[mayo1]

Originally Posted by herb

Great work Mayo1
You will never regret the work you put in on your TEA forms, it comes back to you tenfold

No doubt and I appreciate the support and confidence in your posts. They help me a lot more than you probably even know
Thanks!!!

[herb]

Originally Posted by mayo1

No doubt and I appreciate the support and confidence in your posts. They help me a lot more than you probably even know
Thanks!!!

That was very nice of you to say. Thanks very much. Keep up the good work and let me know of your continued progress

[mayo1]

You too Herb! How are you doing? I'm doing really well

[herb]

Doing swimmingly well Thanks for asking. I hope all is well with you also. I just posted back to you on another thread. Sorry I have been away but always thinking of my friends and hoping they are on the same road as I traveled a few years back and feeling better now