Stereotypical beauty vs. "attractiveness"

[custardcreams]

Originally Posted by Cynic

I beg to differ. I've even seen a few people here express that they've been struck off everyone's list.

Okay, maybe you don't have to be a millionaire, or something out of a girlie/lads magazine, but one does have to be at least as good as their peers.

i thought you might

no, you've seen people saying they think they've been struck off, and a lot of the time when i see that on here i can see how they have made this into a self-fulfilling prophecy... you might say well, it all ends up the same doesnt it? essentially you are correct. but the important difference is that if you never go out to meet people and give fck-off vibes or self-sabotage any opportunity, you are the one in control to do something about that and the problem is not these other factors you attribute it to. more intrinsic factors such as appearance or money are somewhat less in one's control but i say that they are far less important unless you are at the extreme low end of the spectrum.

[charlie188]

Originally Posted by joe 88

I don't think it necessarily means they are nasty. Let's face it, most people judge others based on appearance - to an extent. It's the first thing people notice about others and it plays an important role in building relationships, both friendships and romantic. In fact this innate response is quite useful to human beings, Of course, it doesn't mean you should be outwardly insensitive or rude to people or say things which might hurt their feelings - that would be nasty and horrible. However most normal people will form ideas about others based on their looks and just keep it to themselves.

Groups of friends poke fun about other people's appearance all the time in private. Guys are notorious for doing this. Women are probably just the same for that matter. If being judgemental about people's looks makes you a bad person then I would say 95% of the population is nasty and not worth knowing. In truth, the only thing that makes you nasty and out of order is if you tell the person what you think to their face or make it obvious that you're treating them harshly because of their looks or some aspect of their appearance.

You're right, people do make judgements on people based on appearence (and sometimes harsh ones). However, it's usually just an initial first judgement/impression which then changes once you get to know someone, and the way they look beomes completely irrelevant when you get to know their personality.

Perfect example: Me and a few friends at work got moved to a new team, there was a girl there who was very noticeable, she came across as very bubbly, but she also stuck out because she had really large front teeth, and I even remember my friend privately doing an impression of her with his teeth and I laughed, which I feel a little bad about now.

Cut to about 6 months later, not only had she become one of my best friends (and good friends with the guy who mocked her with his teeth) but we were also living together. I never ever notice or think about her teeth now, or the way she looks, it's just part of her appearence.

However, they *are* people out there who are rude and unfriendly to people because of the way they look, treat them differently, and close themsleves off form getting to know them because of their appearence. There's a word for these people.....

[HelloWorld]

"It turns out, my Christian Support group was right: It doesn't really matter, because, in the end, we're all twats."

[Mr Ploppy]

Originally Posted by black_mamba

Everyone judges on appearances in the sense that you make a judgement about how attractive someone is to you, sure, but when that turns into being outwardly and vocally nasty to someone they are being rude and uncivilised, not to mention childish.

There's really no way to deal with this, and no one appreciates the damage it can cause.

[black_mamba]

^Sorry Dragnet I deleted that post and blended it with this one...

Originally Posted by catlover

Totally agree.

I think it's important to keep in mind that our views of physical beauty are completely arbitrary (i.e., a straight nose is "better" than a curved nose), and have no real significance.

Yes and those beauty standards differ from culture to culture, so you might be "ugly" in one but not in another. Absolutely bizarre.

Originally Posted by HardRockGlamour

And even if a guy thought I was the funniest, smartest, coolest chick he'd ever met, if he didn't think I was pretty, well........

Assuming you're talking about a romantic situation, if someone doesn't find you attractive then they were never right for you (as a partner) in the first place. You can't force people to be attracted to your looks beyond a basic level of presenting yourself nicely, so the idea is that not worrying too much about your looks and trying not to compare yourself will make you feel better, and you will seem happier and so more attractive in body language.

In terms of those lad's mags no, not all men want that stuff. Most of my friends are men and yes some of them like that fake look but the overwhelming majority hate it and are always bemoaning the fact that most modern young women look OTT. Then I look at their girlfriends or ex's and it confirms they're telling me the truth about what they're attracted to.

One of the best things I ever did for my self esteem was to stop reading women's magazines, so I don't know if you do that already but if you do then it might be worth cutting back. Those things are designed to make you feel ugly. Utter rubbish.

Originally Posted by joe 88

If being judgemental about people's looks makes you a bad person then I would say 95% of the population is nasty and not worth knowing. In truth, the only thing that makes you nasty and out of order is if you tell the person what you think to their face or make it obvious that you're treating them harshly because of their looks or some aspect of their appearance.

Yeah I meant when people are vocal about their negative judgements, then I consider them nasty. That is just rude, uncivilised and childish.

[black_mamba]

Originally Posted by Dragnet

There's really no way to deal with this, and no one appreciates the damage it can cause.

Someone told me recently that teenagers are still learning the skill of empathy and sympathy, of being able to put themselves in someone else's shoes (apparantly this is a well known psychology thing)...so that's why they can be so troublesome. And it also explains why it's more often children and teenagers who are nasty about people's looks, as opposed to mature adults.

I think younger people don't appreciate the damage they can potentially do, so perhaps when older people do it they do it deliberately to harm?

When I shaved my hair off a while ago (or dyed it green whilst it was very short) the only people that publicly humiliated me were teenagers.

I don't think I've ever had an adult make fun of my appearance, except last night when my friend said I had puny girl arms. But I did say it first.

[black_mamba]

People who bully you because you seem like a weak male are just taking the lazy route to show off their aggression and masculinity. They're pathetic.

[custardcreams]

Originally Posted by Cynic

W
Well that settles that then. I've known since I was around 14-15 that, if there wasn't a major improvement in me by the time I reached adulthood, that I would never feature as anyone's mating partner. Practically all life experiences since then have proven me right too, and once it's official that you are ******** (i.e. Aspergers), you're relegated to the lowest of the low forever more and please don't quote celebs. They are the exception, not the rule.

lol, celebs? not everyone cares about what they get up to zillions of actual real aspergers people are in relationships though, as im sure you are aware. and unfortunately, i cant take any of what you said here seriously because there's no better candidate for self sabotage than you. i think that's a terrible shame.

[Mr Ploppy]

Originally Posted by black_mamba

I don't think I've ever had an adult make fun of my appearance

20 somethings can be worse than teens.

[black_mamba]

Cynic do you actually believe that weak men are worth less as human beings?

[Terence]

I don't know Black mamba I feel guilty for posting my Hot presenters thread now Which I felt was much better than the Lady Candy thread or the man candy thread combined and done in fun as much as anything else. But I enjoyed the buzz it gave me so.... ?

[Blumoon]

If you're already a reject, then no one else will want to interact with you in the first place.

I know and i wish it wasn't the case, don't remind me.

[likeme]

What I struggle with is this. I know that I could look better, that I could put more effort into how I look and feel better about myself as a result. But something stops me from doing this.....but what? A fear that I may somehow start to value the wrong things? or that by doing so I'm participating in a culture that says looks matter, sending out a message that it's ok to focus on looks. Why I can't overcome the negative feelings about what I look like I do not know. Perhaps it's because I know that people respond to looks, because I respond to them...quite naturally. Someone I knew once said something about taking ownership of her body...I don't feel I have done that. I spend a lot of time ignoring it really....It's all a muddle and I don't know what to do.
I'm watching Katie: My beautiful friends.
http://www.channel4.com/programmes/k...player/3173454

[HardRockGlamour]

Originally Posted by likeme

Someone I knew once said something about taking ownership of her body...I don't feel I have done that. I spend a lot of time ignoring it really....It's all a muddle and I don't know what to do.

I've been thinking lately that I'm a stranger to myself and I don't really live in my body, it's just a shell I am trapped in. Probably not making any sense..

[black_mamba]

Originally Posted by Terence

I don't know Black mamba I feel guilty for posting my Hot presenters thread now Which I felt was much better than the Lady Candy thread or the man candy thread combined and done in fun as much as anything else. But I enjoyed the buzz it gave me so.... ?

There is no need to feel guilty.

The problem is not with threads like that, it's with people thinking those threads define everything that women or men find attractive. It's when people think that is the ONLY thing that is attractive. It's when people think everyone should look like those people. It's when people compare themselves to the pictures posted. The problem is SA and BDD, not the threads themselves.

Originally Posted by Cynic

Not for me to say, but with few exceptions, the evidence overwhelmingly points in that direction and pretty much universal with regards to working-class males.

But don't you believe that all humans are of equal worth? In fact it's more common for people to decide their own level of worth and not let others dictate that for you (so I don't understand how evidence works in this context), otherwise you'd end up absorbing a whole bunch of negative criticism. When I say "worth" I mean a sort of self-esteem, a sense that you deserve just as much happiness and success and opportunities as the next man. Whether you get those things or not is another matter, it's the idea that as long as you feel you are equally as worthy of those things then you'll be more confident in general.

Originally Posted by Cynic

Probably a combination of knowing that I'm socially incompetent, after a whole string of cock-ups in group settings spanning back most of my life, and have to watch my own conduct like a hawk, as well as observing the body language of anyone who I'm mingling with for signs like (a) are they bored with me? (b) Am I getting on their nerves? (c) Would they prefer I piss off? Etc. as well as making sure I don't say anything that I might regret afterwards.

Am also wary that something might kick off around me, or that my pockets/rucksack aren't about to be tampered with. I also have difficulties concentrating on anything when there's a lot of noise/activity around me. It's like having to remain alert for a number of different things at once, whether it's people in my company, strangers or anything else. I think I've become paranoid among crowds as I've got older.

The joys of being an Aspie.

Wow that is a lot of stuff to think about. I identify totally with the first paragraph and the issue of noise but not about things kicking off. Is that something you've experienced a lot and have learnt to be afraid of through experience, or is it just paranoia? Sorry if I'm getting too nosy I'm just curious.

Originally Posted by Terence

Thing I hate about meets is I'm the only smoker I wish more people smoked at meets I'd go more often.

The most smokers I've ever seen was at that massive Cambridge meet erm maybe 1 or 2 years ago. 3 smokers including me, wowee!

Originally Posted by likeme

What I struggle with is this. I know that I could look better, that I could put more effort into how I look and feel better about myself as a result. But something stops me from doing this.....but what? A fear that I may somehow start to value the wrong things? or that by doing so I'm participating in a culture that says looks matter, sending out a message that it's ok to focus on looks

I understand! I used to dress very plainly when I was younger because I perhaps thought of it as a rebellion against a looks-obsessed culture. Actually, when I started ironing my clothes and wearing things that fit instead of just hanged off my body, I looked better and felt better, which resulted in more confidence.

I don't think attempting to present yourself in a better way is shallow, esp. if you define what "better" means and not others. Also, putting a little more effort in is not really being looksobsessed is it? It's like saying having a shower and combing your hair is shallow...does that mean you've suddenly valued the wrong things, the shallow aesthetic things in life?

Aesthetics are not always a shallow pursuit, and having a little interest in presenting yourself nicely is not obsession, and can only make you feel better.

[Mr Ploppy]

Why do ladies mags have articles saying be proud of who you are, be yourself, don't worry about size, etc, then the next page has faddy diets, superslim models, fashion musts, waffle waffle ?

Is there anyway to get your head around that and stay sane ?
Not reading them and denying them your business would seem to be the ideal answer but I know it won't be that simple.

I'm asking this about ladies mags as i've little idea what's in lads mags (tits & cars ?)

[black_mamba]

Originally Posted by Dragnet

Why do ladies mags have articles saying be proud of who you are, be yourself, don't worry about size, etc, then the next page has faddy diets, superslim models, fashion musts, waffle waffle ?

Is there anyway to get your head around that and stay sane ?
Not reading them and denying them your business would seem to be the ideal answer but I know it won't be that simple.

I'm asking this about ladies mags as i've little idea what's in lads mags (tits & cars ?)

That's a good point! It's twisted isn't it!

The only solution is to deny them your money, absolutely. What else can you do besides campaigning against this pervasive pressure to look a certain way all the time, which many women already do to no avail.

I've spoken to many women about this and we all agreed that our self esteem felt better after we stopped reading women's mags, so it certainly works!

[Mr Ploppy]

The really trashy mags are even worse, just glancing at the covers while waiting at the checkout makes my stomach turn. I won't repeat the hysterical headline on one cover I saw today, really dreadful

[black_mamba]

Originally Posted by Dragnet

The really trashy mags are even worse, just glancing at the covers while waiting at the checkout makes my stomach turn. I won't repeat the hysterical headline on one cover I saw today, really dreadful

Me too, I feel physically repulsed when I read them...you mean stuff like Heat where they have pictures of celebs and highlight their "imperfections"? That stuff is messed up.

I get angry sometimes and get the urge to just grab them and thrown them away or burn them. They must be making so many people paranoid about their looks.

[Mr Ploppy]

Originally Posted by black_mamba

Me too, I feel physically repulsed when I read them...you mean stuff like Heat where they have pictures of celebs and highlight their "imperfections"? That stuff is messed up.

I get angry sometimes and get the urge to just grab them and thrown them away or burn them. They must be making so many people paranoid about their looks.

That, and the "true life" stories, ugh. The more disturbing the better for them.

[black_mamba]

Originally Posted by Dragnet

That, and the "true life" stories, ugh. The more disturbing the better for them.

Like I said, it's twisted! Those stories used to really upset me. I don't see the pleasure in reading them or looking at a million ads telling me I look crap and need more make up. Feck orf.

[Defiance]

dragent why do you have so much knowledge of what's inside womens mags but no knowledge of mens mags, does anyone else find this odd lol

[jessicamary]

Ok I have not read all the way through this, but beauty has always been something of a personal hatred of mine!! I never thought of myself as pretty, well actually beauty was not something I actually even thought about, it was the inside of a person who made them not the outside. At secondary school, i was bullied alot, not because I had ginger hair, not because I had a big nose, not any of that. I did not know why I was bullied, I did not know why the boys fancied me, and when I rejected them (as simply I was not interested) they would turn really nasty to me. So why people were being so horrible to me? Because I was what the media, what rotton stinky mags refer to as being 'pretty'. I hated being pretty, still today I hate being pretty. I rarely wear makeup, never dress nicely, - i do not want another stalker, I do not want men pushing their condoms through my letter box - it freaks me out. Do you know how horrible it is being 'pretty' or 'attractive'? Even with out the makeup, without the clothes, I still get instant hatred from both women and men. A lady the other day shouted at me saying 'look at you, you think your all that, well just you leave my husband alone, I know your type'?? I mean, I was walking the dog, i was wearing awful holey leggings, a rotton jumper and I have no idea who she or her husband were?
I hate been 'pretty'!!! So in terms of attractiveness, in terms of whether people on here feel they are attractive, whether its beauty, imperfections, perfections, big noses, too small a nose, too much makeup, too little makeup, what ever you are your going to be judged!!!!

[GhostOnMagneticTape]

Originally Posted by Mazuru

I believe all humans deserve the same rights and opportunities but some people are worth more than others. Doctors , Scientists and Engineers are generally worth the most and have priority over all other human beings in situations where difficult choices have to be made.

As for humans, I don't believe no matter what their status is are worth more or worth less... what I feel is lacking is respect and tolerance of individuality.

I admire what doctors, scientists and engineers do but to advocate their priority above others makes no logical sense unless I've misinterpreted what you said?

[redsparrow]

I think he's on about the value they bring to society.

[GhostOnMagneticTape]

OK but that's a dystopian worse case scenario... and still makes no sense to put them above anyone else of the human race.

To me you advocate that a person who states "I am a scientist/doctor/engineer... therefore I am above you as I know how to stop or handle a nuclear war" is more worthy above anyone else?

Sorry, I'm just trying to understand your point and challenge my own views. Maybe you really mean the human race chances of survival if a mass loss of human life happened? Hence your statement.

[Mr Ploppy]

Originally Posted by Defiance

dragent why do you have so much knowledge of what's inside womens mags but no knowledge of mens mags, does anyone else find this odd lol

Hardly a lot of knowledge. I've maybe flicked through them about a half dozen times when i've encountered one someone has bought. But the same has never happened with a lads mag.

[GhostOnMagneticTape]

Hmm... I understand the fears and (mis)conceptions some people have but I take the view if anything globally catastrophic were to happen, we are all equal irrelevant of what we know or not. Everyone can provide skills and knowledge more than a doctor/engineer/scientist in various ways if encouraged and supported.

Thought to put it bluntly... pardon my language I think in reality today most people are swinging towards "cu*tism" or "elitism"...

[black_mamba]

Originally Posted by Mazuru

Do you believe that mamba?

I believe all humans deserve the same rights and opportunities but some people are worth more than others. Doctors , Scientists and Engineers are generally worth the most and have priority over all other human beings in situations where difficult choices have to be made.

So I left my job as an engineer almost 2 years ago and now I am worth less as a person? Absolute rubbish. If I felt that way I would've killed myself a long time ago as I wasn't contributing to society and my feelings of worthlessness would've multiplied.

I don't think you can place value on human beings, so when I say worth I literally mean their rights to the same opportunities and civil liberties.

I do believe that all humans are worth the same. To think otherwise is going to destroy your self esteem.

Doctors and engineers might be able to solve medical and technical problems but what about social and political problems? What about people who create things that make us happy like art and entertainment? Don't you remember that famous Churchill quote ...

During the Second World War, Winston Churchill’s finance minister said Britain should cut arts funding to support the war effort. Churchill’s response: “Then what are we fighting for?”

You decide your own worth, and if you start thinking up reasons why engineers and doctors are above everyone else then you're going to be miserable unless you are those things.

[HardRockGlamour]

Originally Posted by jessicamary

Ok I have not read all the way through this, but beauty has always been something of a personal hatred of mine!! I never thought of myself as pretty, well actually beauty was not something I actually even thought about, it was the inside of a person who made them not the outside. At secondary school, i was bullied alot, not because I had ginger hair, not because I had a big nose, not any of that. I did not know why I was bullied, I did not know why the boys fancied me, and when I rejected them (as simply I was not interested) they would turn really nasty to me. So why people were being so horrible to me? Because I was what the media, what rotton stinky mags refer to as being 'pretty'. I hated being pretty, still today I hate being pretty. I rarely wear makeup, never dress nicely, - i do not want another stalker, I do not want men pushing their condoms through my letter box - it freaks me out. Do you know how horrible it is being 'pretty' or 'attractive'? Even with out the makeup, without the clothes, I still get instant hatred from both women and men. A lady the other day shouted at me saying 'look at you, you think your all that, well just you leave my husband alone, I know your type'?? I mean, I was walking the dog, i was wearing awful holey leggings, a rotton jumper and I have no idea who she or her husband were?
I hate been 'pretty'!!! So in terms of attractiveness, in terms of whether people on here feel they are attractive, whether its beauty, imperfections, perfections, big noses, too small a nose, too much makeup, too little makeup, what ever you are your going to be judged!!!!

It has to be said, a lot of people on this forum wish they were very good-looking, and the members that wish they were a little less good-looking don't usually get a great response, we can't really empathise, but that sounds really awful. I can't believe people say and do those things to you? We imagine beauty would bring us success and love and popularity, forgetting that people are also very intimidated and threatened by it. In this world where looks seem to matter so much, being beautiful is bound to make others feel inadequate and jealous. And jealousy can be a very nasty thing . And the men! I don't know what to say about them. It must be hard for you to trust people?...