Stereotypical beauty vs. "attractiveness"

[black_mamba]

A lot of us have issues of self esteem related to our appearances, some have BDD. I've had crappy self esteem and looking back at my behaviour as a teenager, I definitely had BDD too - both have been wrestled with and I now love the way I look, even though I'm getting wrinkly, have loads of grey hairs sprouting from my head and have what most people would call "imperfections" such as a crooked nose, big teeth and dark body hair.

Unfortunately the recent Lady/Man Candy threads had made some people feel inadequate and this reminded me of when I used to have BDD.

It wasn't the pictures posted in those threads that made you feel bad, it was your SA. It was your brain twisting everything into a negative. It was your thought patterns telling you to instantly compare yourself with the guy/girl in question. It was your long established habit of being cruel to yourself.

This is an alternative way to think about how "attractive" we can be to others - it might be useful for some of those people who felt sad looking at those images of celebs. I posted this in another thread so it's a little out of context. This is the page it was taken from. I'll try my best to explain the quote at the end.

Zayed is right there will always be people prettier than us and there is no point figuring out where we are on that 'ladder' and obsessing (not saying you do this AL, these are just general comments). The other point is that the ladder doesn't exist if you choose not to believe in it because it's only a generalisation and a preference. Not everyone sticks to their preferences in the face of other preferences...I'll try and explain.

Classical beauty might be objective (if you accept the ideas about symmetrical faces being nicer and all that) but what about a more general definition of beauty that includes more than just appearances (e.g. includes personality, includes context, includes personal idiosyncrasies). The cynical ones amongst you will be laughing but I've noticed that people who are very confident about their appearance think in this way. We (and yes I include myself in that group) see beauty in things that appeal to us specifically MORE than things that fit stereotypical norms like full lips, bug eyes and long soft hair (but those things are nice too ). Suddenly my crooked nose becomes beautiful to me because it reminds me of an Egyptian princess and it is uniquely me. Suddenly a stereotypically average or even ugly looking friend becomes beautiful when I realise what a warm, caring person he is towards me. Suddenly that doctor who was so nice to you when you revealed your SA becomes beautiful in your eyes because she treated you with respect.

And likewise, even when I meet stunningly good looking people who have something very nasty in their souls I feel physically repulsed when I look at them. It's as if I've reprogrammed my brain to find more than aesthetics attractive. I hope I've explained it right because if I haven't it comes out like wishy-washy clap trap bullshit.

So you might not be able to change your actual looks or position on the' ladder', but you can work on your attractiveness level because SA really drags that down sometimes, and a little confidence will boost it.

Please remember these are only my suggestions, they work for me, they work for my friends, they work for a lot of people, but of course feel free to ask if you don't understand or feel free to ignore if you find it stupid or useless. But understand I am only talking about looks, not status or money or any of those things that tend to crop up during discussions about relationships here. I would appreciate it if those ideas were kept out of this thread too as they're not relevant to my idea.

Basically, I would suggest that you learn there are two ways of thinking about your looks: the stereotypical/classic one (girl: hourglass figure, long full hair, big lips/tits/hips, guy: chisled, muscley, tall) and another type, let's call that "attractiveness".

In terms of classic beauty, there is a sliding scale. You might be ugly in comparison to a celebrity, or not. There is not a lot you can do to change that, so try not to focus all your energy on it unless it is causing you severe problems. And unfortunately most of us are ugly compared to celebrities because the people that tend to get those jobs are freakishly good looking and caked in make up! Remember that. Celebs, TV actors, film stars etc. do not represent a good cross section of society!

Instead think of yourself and others in terms of attractiveness ... this is the whole package. Looks and personality combined, a more realistic representation of who you are. People don't look at you and take the looks in isolation, they take onboard your personality and body language too. Your personality affects your body language, and body language is part of your appearance!

This is why I think it's unhealthy that anyone with SA fixates on the appearance of their body too much. It does you more good to understand why you feel so bad, fix it (easier said than done I know), and grow in confidence and then in turn your body language will reflect this increase in confidence and make you seem more attractive. Confidence makes us smile (which is attractive and makes people around you happy), confidence makes us stand up straight (which is attractive), confidence makes you interested in people other than yourself (which makes other people happy because relationships become more balanced).

I know not everyone will agree with this. There may be cynics out there who think an ugly person is ugly to everyone. The truth is more likely that the person who thinks of themselves as ugly will always feel ugly, and will therefore radiate ugly energy i.e. un-friendliness

As an example, I'll describe one of my ex boyfriends. He was a strange looking man, no hair, broken nose from a cycling accident (or so he told me, hehe) and wonky teeth. He epitomised the conventional definition of ugly. I once met one of his ex's and she said he was a lovely man, a good friend, but "butt ugly" as well. Well if you only looked at him in terms of classic beauty, then yeah, he was no super model, but due to the fact he was a lovely friend I became attracted to him, and yes part of that attraction was physical.

It's the same idea as finding a really friendly average looking girl prettier than a bitchy average looking girl. Personality has a bearing on how attractive you find someone. I'm stating the obvious but I think it is linked to how people with SA might over emphasise the looks part of the equation and underestimate the personality/body language/confidence element.

Did any of that make sense or am I talking crap?

[Johnni]

Excellant post BM, excellant!

[black_mamba]

Originally Posted by Diablo Loco

Have you seen any of the Beauty and Beast documentaries on c4? They are quite interesting and eye opening,

http://www.channel4.com/programmes/b...-prejudice/4od

I've only seen the one with the female model obsessed with boob jobs where she met the black guy with burn scars. The whole thing made me angry to be honest. She was so self obsessed she didn't even engage with the man! I didn't finish watching it. Are the other episodes any good? Any particular one you would recommend?

Originally Posted by Johnni

Excellant post BM, excellant!

Thank you.

Originally Posted by Moomin

Good post Mamba.

"Comparisons are odious"

I love that saying so much and it encapsulates exactly how I feel on that subject.

When I was 16 or so I looked in the mirror and thought I had a weird face but not in horrible way, or good way.

I said to myself "no one is better than you and no one is worse than you, you are on your own level". It stuck till this day. I still had BDD and bad times with image though. However, I knew 95% of the time if I woke up and hated myself because of bullying flashbacks its not because I've directly compared myself to someone. I don't believe in it in regards to comparing other people, or "leagues". Cuts out so much bullshit as a woman.

Very rarely comparison temptation gets me although it tended to be body based and it's the worse feeling in the world. Feeling like that regularly is not only a depressing thought, it's also unnecessary. Do yourself a favour and remove the habit of comparison in as many areas of your life as possible.

Yes!! .... comparing yourself is POINTLESS, there no need to do it. So don't do it. Simple solution. It will destroy you if you fixate on where on this league/ladder thing you are.

I used to compare myself constantly when my BDD was bad and I felt so repulsive and gross. I don't do it anymore and feel all the more better for it.

[black_mamba]

Originally Posted by Jazra

Nice post! you speak a lot of sense

Thank you. Dat hat!

[Mr Ploppy]

I'm not harsh on myself, other people are. How do I deal with that ?

[black_mamba]

What do you mean Dragnet? In what ways are they harsh?

[Mr Ploppy]

Treated like shit since childhood for differences. It's a little easier now i'm an adult but it still happens.
I think you do talk a lot of sense in your post but not all problems are internal.

[black_mamba]

Originally Posted by Dragnet

Treated like shit since childhood for differences. It's a little easier now i'm an adult but it still happens.
I think you do talk a lot of sense in your post but not all problems are internal.

I agree not all problems are internal.

But I was bullied for my looks too, and even now some people make fun of certain things about me. I think most people have their looks made fun of at some point in their lives, obviously some more than others.

For me the turning point came when my self esteem became very strong. At that point insults couldn't hurt me in the same way that they used to because I valued myself and understood that this was all that mattered - my opinion of myself. Also I realised that when people make harsh judgements on you based on your appearance, that says everything you need to know about them and NOT you. That they are rude, judgemental and nasty. It doesn't say anything about you as a person, it doesn't reduce your value, your worth, in any way.

Does that make sense?

[Blumoon]

Originally Posted by Dragnet

I'm not harsh on myself, other people are. How do I deal with that ?

That's the thing with me also.

[W!llow]

Excellent post BM. What you say is very true, it is about the whole person, I know SA-ers struggle because of feeling inhibited with body-language and showing their personality often so it is hard for sufferers to feel positive because some feel lacking in all areas. (aren't I chirpy!)

I watched that Beauty and the Beast some time later on 40D, it was really good, it really does put things into perspective and you can see how obsession with beauty is actually very unattractive.

[Toxic]

i think there is a lot of sense here

i think i look an absolute state..i dont even like looking at people as i dont think they deserve to have to look at me..i have such a low opinion of myself etc etc

yet i find myself being told quite often at work by the women they would have "had me already" if they wasnt taken..and because of my personality im coming 2nd or 3rd in the list of guys at work..i find the whole thing really quite strange..

and i do probably agree..i think i do have a nice personality..its just getting to know someone for a while first because I, personally take ages before i open up fully and start talking how i would normally..everyone thought i was boring and weird when i started at work..and im still like that now around new people..or people i havent been round much..its weird how different i am around different people in the same confined space..

i dont know..it makes sense..i still think ill never been wanted though because of my appearance..despite being told otherwise!

[Toxic]

Originally Posted by Moomin

Whistle for a hottie, woo, woo!

Go Venom

if my personality makes me attractive (..i dont see it) ..why am i single!

probably doesnt help im not around new..single women..but then im a weirdo..cant win!

its probably a lie and they laugh at me behind my back! /paranoia hat

[black_mamba]

Originally Posted by Blumoon

That's the thing with me also.

No one deserves to have their appearance made fun of.

Originally Posted by W!llow

... and you can see how obsession with beauty is actually very unattractive.

Yeah good point, it's another form of self-obsession and is actually quite anti-social.

Originally Posted by CaveGirl

What has harmed me most is how i've seen myself although i've made inroads this year.

Exactly. There will always be snotty little kids around making fun of people's looks, or shallow spiteful people who make jibes about your appearance for no reason, and that just means they're nasty people, not that you're unattractive.

The best thing to do is realise they're not picking on just you, but everyone, and that your opinion of yourself is the most important thing.

Originally Posted by Venom

i think there is a lot of sense here

i think i look an absolute state..i dont even like looking at people as i dont think they deserve to have to look at me..i have such a low opinion of myself etc etc

yet i find myself being told quite often at work by the women they would have "had me already" if they wasnt taken..and because of my personality im coming 2nd or 3rd in the list of guys at work..i find the whole thing really quite strange..

and i do probably agree..i think i do have a nice personality..its just getting to know someone for a while first because I, personally take ages before i open up fully and start talking how i would normally..everyone thought i was boring and weird when i started at work..and im still like that now around new people..or people i havent been round much..its weird how different i am around different people in the same confined space..

i dont know..it makes sense..i still think ill never been wanted though because of my appearance..despite being told otherwise!

You're exactly like me. I identify with the idea that I don't even deserve to be looked at, or at least I used to feel that way very strongly. Not so much now. My SA always used to cause problems, not my appearance...so if anything you should accept those lovely compliments and take them to heart. People don't give compliments out for the hell of it, they mean it! Clearly you're attractive to a lot of women once they get to know you but perhaps at that point your SA is lesser?

[charlie188]

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Someone doesn't have to be stereotypically good looking but can still be very attractive, or have something "sexy" about them. Personality can often contribute to that, and the way people carry themsleves.

[Mr Ploppy]

I can't watch those sort of shows. I'm outraged that anyone has to be stronger, or develop ways of dealing with the spite of others. Or worse that they have to change themselves to be acceptable.
They shouldn't have to do any of that.

[Toxic]

Originally Posted by Moomin

I think you just answered your own question -_- Try getting out there.

Generally grown up women usually don't tell guys that they fancy them if they don't for various reasons including not being able to get rid of them lol. Don't worry. Didn't you say some girl was touching your face, or something. What kinda work place is this

everybody is touchy feely..theres been more done than face touching..and this is by married people i originally thought it was normal when it was a work place of men and women..as id only been round a load of guys before..its probably not though!

Originally Posted by black_mamba

You're exactly like me. I identify with the idea that I don't even deserve to be looked at, or at least I used to feel that way very strongly. Not so much now. My SA always used to cause problems, not my appearance...so if anything you should accept those lovely compliments and take them to heart. People don't give compliments out for the hell of it, they mean it! Clearly you're attractive to a lot of women once they get to know you but perhaps at that point your SA is lesser?

the ones who i havent spoke to much still think im weird..because im just too shy to talk to them properly, but yeah..around the ones im more comfortable with..i probably almost act normal..if not a bit rude..and/or childish

Originally Posted by Cynic

Sounds like they're just having a laugh and there's nowt wrong with that. Next time one says that to you, and she becomes single again, keep that in mind.

probably..one of them is single though, thats the one who was coming onto me before which i didnt appreciate

[catlover]

Originally Posted by Dragnet

I'm outraged that anyone has to be stronger, or develop ways of dealing with the spite of others. Or worse that they have to change themselves to be acceptable.
They shouldn't have to do any of that.

Totally agree.

I think it's important to keep in mind that our views of physical beauty are completely arbitrary (i.e., a straight nose is "better" than a curved nose), and have no real significance.

On the other hand, our views of inner beauty are not arbitrary (they derive from our sense of morality, of what's right and wrong) and they do have significance, in that people with inner beauty make the world a better place for all.

[HardRockGlamour]

You make total sense to me! Great post!

My problem is, I have it in my head that everyone wants something hot/beautiful to look at, I feel like I'm not good enough because I'm not as hot/beautiful as other girls, or the girls in the sexy magazines. I might be completely messed up, but I see the girls in lads mags and I figure this must be what guys are after, in real life. Girls like this. And it's not like there are no girls like that in real life, from what I see, there are. And I feel like there is no point in wishing I was pretty because there are SO many girls out there that look a lot more like the 'ideal' than I do. I don't know, maybe these girls are just naturally gorgeous, maybe they put a lot of effort in because they got the same message I did (this is how they must look, this is what guys want). I feel like, why should I bother? Why should I make a big effort to look that way? It doesn't matter what I do to my skin, or teeth, or hair, or body, I'm never gonna match up. I have no idea why a guy would choose me from the crowd, after all, there is a very wide selection out there. To think someone would pick me? Absurd. Ridiculous. Unfathomable.

I know you said not to compare, ever, but it is very very hard not to. I might see it all in a really awful way... But it is how I see it. It's how I feel about it.

I think, though, when somebody is happy and friendly and kind and fun-loving, etc etc, they glow, they look radiant and their personality shines. I agree with all that. I think people do care about that, but I can't shake off the fear that people are just a little bit more interested in good looks. And even if a guy thought I was the funniest, smartest, coolest chick he'd ever met, if he didn't think I was pretty, well........

There's no doubt going to be someone reading this thinking 'shut up silly girl, you have boyfriend *eye rollll*'. Well, having a boyfriend doesn't make my fears and low self esteem just vanish, it causes more. I feel so unsexy and our relationship doesn't have any passion or whatever they call it, I feel so stupid and ugly. I don't want him to look at my face. I can't be sexy and I have no sexuality because my self esteem is so low. I really think he lowered his looks standard with me.

Sorry for this awful post. I swear I'm not cynical just defeated.

[Toxic]

Originally Posted by HardRockGlamour

You make total sense to me! Great post!

My problem is, I have it in my head that everyone wants something hot/beautiful to look at, I feel like I'm not good enough because I'm not as hot/beautiful as other girls, or the girls in the sexy magazines. I might be completely messed up, but I see the girls in lads mags and I figure this must be what guys are after, in real life. Girls like this. And it's not like there are no girls like that in real life, from what I see, there are. And I feel like there is no point in wishing I was pretty because there are SO many girls out there that look a lot more like the 'ideal' than I do. I don't know, maybe these girls are just naturally gorgeous, maybe they put a lot of effort in because they got the same message I did (this is how they must look, this is what guys want). I feel like, why should I bother? Why should I make a big effort to look that way? It doesn't matter what I do to my skin, or teeth, or hair, or body, I'm never gonna match up. I have no idea why a guy would choose me from the crowd, after all, there is a very wide selection out there. To think someone would pick me? Absurd. Ridiculous. Unfathomable.

I know you said not to compare, ever, but it is very very hard not to. I might see it all in a really awful way... But it is how I see it. It's how I feel about it.

I think, though, when somebody is happy and friendly and kind and fun-loving, etc etc, they glow, they look radiant and their personality shines. I agree with all that. I think people do care about that, but I can't shake off the fear that people are just a little bit more interested in good looks. And even if a guy thought I was the funniest, smartest, coolest chick he'd ever met, if he didn't think I was pretty, well........

There's no doubt going to be someone reading this thinking 'shut up silly girl, you have boyfriend *eye rollll*'. Well, having a boyfriend doesn't make my fears and low self esteem just vanish, it causes more. I feel so unsexy and our relationship doesn't have any passion or whatever they call it, I feel so stupid and ugly. I don't want him to look at my face. I can't be sexy and I have no sexuality because my self esteem is so low. I really think he lowered his looks standard with me.

Sorry for this awful post. I swear I'm not cynical just defeated.

i guess theres probably more pressure on women to look like celebs then men..as there seems to be a ton more airbrushed to hell women about in magazines and whatever

i dont know if these women in magazines are really what all men want..i certainly dont find..fake..bits/airbrushed/plastered in 3" of make up particularly attractive..i guess some guys do or they wouldnt bother making said magazines

its probably mostly for the "teens" who think thats a "normal" woman when it really isnt

..i also dont know why im rambling..ive tried to make a serious post here..i must be ill..although i say this ive found random ""normal"" women just getting on with things on the bus going to work or whatever way more attractive than any woman ive seen in them magazines

-edit!..i mean!..not that id ever read them mags...(ok i may have bought a few of the car ones when i was at school)

[HardRockGlamour]

Originally Posted by Venom

-edit!..i mean!..not that id ever read them mags...(ok i may have bought a few of the car ones when i was at school)

Off with your head!!!!!

[ShyGuyMatt]

Fact is, an ugly man with a fat wallet and an expensive car will always be attractive to the opposite sex.
The rest of us are screwed.

[HardRockGlamour]

Originally Posted by ShyGuyMatt

Fact is, an ugly man with a fat wallet and an expensive car will always be attractive to the opposite sex.
The rest of us are screwed.

I keep seeing crap saying women are all gold-diggers, it's horseshit.

[custardcreams]

Originally Posted by ShyGuyMatt

Fact is, an ugly man with a fat wallet and an expensive car will always be attractive to the opposite sex.
The rest of us are screwed.

well you sure are (or arent as the case may be) with an attitude like that.

[HardRockGlamour]

*Runs to hide under the bed covers.*

Sod this world for a game of soldiers.

[ShyGuyMatt]

Sorry, maybe the way I worded it was a little bit inflammatory, but that is what I believe.
In the same way that men can often be shallow in regards to physical attractivness when looking for a potential partner, women can often be shallow when it comes to material things.
I'm not saying its wrong either, its just the way nature has programmed us.
Biologically we are programmed to ensure the survival of our genes and in my opinion, a man who is in a better position to provide for any children he may father is ofcourse going to be more attractive to potential parners.
Just my opinion.

[Mr Ploppy]

Originally Posted by joe 88

I don't think it necessarily means they are nasty. Let's face it, most people judge others based on appearance - to an extent. It's the first thing people notice about others and it plays an important role in building relationships, both friendships and romantic. In fact this innate response is quite useful to human beings, Of course, it doesn't mean you should be outwardly insensitive or rude to people or say things which might hurt their feelings - that would be nasty and horrible. However most normal people will form ideas about others based on their looks and just keep it to themselves.

Groups of friends poke fun about other people's appearance all the time in private. Guys are notorious for doing this. Women are probably just the same for that matter. If being judgemental about people's looks makes you a bad person then I would say 95% of the population is nasty and not worth knowing. In truth, the only thing that makes you nasty and out of order is if you tell the person what you think to their face or make it obvious that you're treating them harshly because of their looks or some aspect of their appearance.

It's different if friends do it. If a stranger decides to do the same they're a shit, no question.

[custardcreams]

Originally Posted by ShyGuyMatt

Sorry, maybe the way I worded it was a little bit inflammatory, but that is what I believe.
In the same way that men can often be shallow in regards to physical attractivness when looking for a potential partner, women can often be shallow when it comes to material things.
I'm not saying its wrong either, its just the way nature has programmed us.
Biologically we are programmed to ensure the survival of our genes and in my opinion, a man who is in a better position to provide for any children he may father is ofcourse going to be more attractive to potential parners.
Just my opinion.

to an extent but biology is one factor among many. to say you're screwed if you're not rich is absolutely ludicrous, everyone is shallow in some way but i'd say my shallowness goes more in the looks direction more than the material goods direction which i am not terribly interested in. everyone is different, anybody could be rejected for some silly shallow reason, we should just feel lucky that there are so many ways to be shallow that nobody will be struck off everyone's list.

[ShyGuyMatt]

Originally Posted by custardcreams

to an extent but biology is one factor among many. to say you're screwed if you're not rich is absolutely ludicrous, everyone is shallow in some way but i'd say my shallowness goes more in the looks direction more than the material goods direction which i am not terribly interested in. everyone is different, anybody could be rejected for some silly shallow reason, we should just feel lucky that there are so many ways to be shallow that nobody will be struck off everyone's list.

Yes, my original statement was just a silly tongue-in-cheek remark.
Although I really do believe that many (not all) women are prepared to overlook the fact that a man looks like a bulldog chewing a wasp if he is loaded, and so the burden of having a face only a mother could love is lessened for said man.
I see it all the time.
No point in debating this really, its completely subjective, there really is no right or wrong.
Yes, I do have a massive chip on my shoulder.

[custardcreams]

Originally Posted by ShyGuyMatt

Yes, I do have a massive chip on my shoulder.

i dont mind people who have a chip on their shoulder when they admit it. at least then you have some flexibility to understand your view on the world might be a bit clouded! and you can do something about it too. it's people who are totally stuck in the mud and blame everyone else for their problems that piss me off.

and you are right, some people would be swayed by a fat wallet, if that's what floats their boat, just like some men are swayed by fake tits and hair extensions even if the woman is a total nightmare to be around. fortunately there are enough more 'normal' people around that we can discount their opinions.

[ShyGuyMatt]

Aye, my view of the world comes from a slightly skewed perspective, I'm happy to aknowledge that.
I don't mean to come across so negative though at the end of the day looks, relative wealth etc, its all trivial really!
No matter how crap I sometimes think things may be some poor sod would happily trade both nuts to have a pop at life in my shoes.
Always worth remembering.