Bristol University found guilty of failings

[Pink*Lady]

https://uk.yahoo.com/news/bristol-un...150119003.html

[Dougella]

^ I wonder where the distinction is between a health condition or mental health condition and a disability, or whether for the purpose of the university services everything comes under the umbrella of disability?

It's a really sad story and social anxiety is particularly difficult as the nature of the condition means that actually reaching out to support services or contacting someone is so difficult in the first place.

[Dougella]

^ That's a really good documentary. What comes accross about the young woman is that she was really lovely, very hard working and conscientious, obviously wanted to do well academically. (Not that it should matter whether she was a nice person or well liked at all, she still should have been given adequate support.)

I can recognise the feeling that if you "fail" at university then your whole life is ruined, everything's over....which isn't the case at all, lots of people struggle, change courses, take a break and go on to be successful anyway. But at the time you can't see that. Coupled with the fear that you'd be letting everyone down. It's so sad that there were a number of students that took their own lives around that same time.

And she had been to the student mental health service and talked about feeling suicidal. There obviously were failures there, perhaps she wasn't taken seriously or given the right kind of support. The issue around giving a presentation is a big one, and accomodations could easily be made! Students could be allowed to give the presentation with just the tutor there instead of the whole class, or they could do something digitally and record the presentation instead of having to do it in person.

[Amara 94]

Off subject but I find it questionable how lots of suicide were reported to have happened at Bristol university a few years ago. 2018/19 I think.

[biscuits]

It's really sad. It's good that her family have finally had the outcome that they were looking for - for their concerns to be recognised. This will become a landmark case and the drive for change.

It's strange that the support for MH at uni isn't consistent and very different at different universities.

The university that I went to had excellent MH support. I needed to speak to someone because I was so anxious that I couldn't physically eat and every morning I was sick because I was so anxious. I was weeing blood. I emailed the counselling service because it was easier to type it all out rather than say it in person and they saw me by the end of the week. The counsellor I saw didn't end up being my counsellor they just provided someone to talk to. She taught me breathing techniques and helped me to feel calm enough to be able to eat a whole sandwich. She then recommended a counsellor and I was able to meet with them once a week for about a year.

I also had a mental health advocate. She organised a walking group for those is us with social anxiety and we would go for lunch time walks and then go for a coffee. Her role was take away the stress of having to ask for extensions, special considerations (e.g. taking exams in isolation, arrangements for presentations, taking time off, extensions etc.).
She would liaise with university departments on a student's behalf. I didn't need any of those things because my degree only required one group presentation and it was organised so that we only presented to another two groups. She'd also check in on anyone that didn't attend the walking group.

They also ran confidence workshops.

That year played a huge part of my recovery and my gratitude towards them is immeasurable.

There definitely needs to be an overhaul is how universities provide a duty of care towards their students. The suicide rate an universities is tragically high - particularly for men.

[Amara 94]

Originally Posted by The Devil, Probably.

I do think there is an degree of scapegoating of Bristol. I know no one seems to be seeking "blame" in this case, but they do seem to be seeking a "reason". I would argue that with suicide there is never one reason that can adequately explain it although, of course, imagining that there is helps people sleep a bit better and makes for more coherent headlines and articles. There is also only so much that a university can realistically do - maybe much more than it is - esp. if student suicide is mostly a reflection of youth suicide. A university can't solve the mental health "crisis".

I don’t think it’s scapegoating if suicide seemed to be a bigger issue in Bristol university than other universities. I remember hearing off suicide more in Bristol university around 2018 so something must have gone on.

Perhaps their were other factors, of cause there were, but it was suspicious that we can question Bristol university.

[biscuits]

^^ Mental Health services (not associated with the university) were also found to be inadequate. The university hasn't been scapegoated, the verdict suggests that they didn't adequately safeguard one of their vulnerable students. The university said that they tried to put things into place, but without seeing the evidence presented to the judge that would be impossible to comment on.

The main focus should be on universities ensuring that the safeguarding of their students is a top priority. Providing pastoral care for the students, making sure mental health is spoken about as part of freshers week, putting a responsibility on everyone to look out for each other, education about recognising the signs of depression and suicidal ideation, providing activities for people who don't want to be swept up in the drinking or night time socialising side. Making people feel accepted and that the programme of study is flexible and inclusive.

[Percy]

Well done PinkLady for putting this up, i tried yesterday but my tablet wouldn't let me.

[Sunrise]

My own experience of seeking help for mental health issues at university was being told by my personal tutor that I was wasting his time and that people with my issues shouldn't be in education. Although this was 15 years ago so I would have hoped things have moved on since then. The only support offered was the option of having someone take notes for me in lectures, which I declined because it was completely irrelevant to my issues. I found it a horrible environment to be in as someone with mental health issues and it eventually led to me having a serious breakdown. I found it a very intense, fast-paced environment where it was easy to fall behind your peers and become isolated. I found it very overwhelming, and feel that the environment was set up for people who were very confident, gregarious, ambitious and competitive, and it felt like that was something that was actively encouraged. I found it a huge struggle but I never felt like they failed me, I felt like I failed them because I couldn't handle the pressure.

I was reading about this young lady the other day and it's a desperately sad story. She clearly wasn't given the support she needed with the most tragic of consequences. I found it a very upsetting read.

[Dougella]

^ What were you studying, if it's ok to ask?

I do remember when I was doing my degree the tutors got very huffy at people asking for an extension on an assignment or anything like that, they were not very understanding (and hence I never asked for extra time for anything.) I get the feeling that support services/disability services are the ones to go to for any kind or help and accomodations and then the tutors have to begrudgingly accept whatever's agreed. I hope it's a lot better now, and I'm sure there are staff who are much more understanding.

[Sunrise]

Interesting that you ask as I feel that probably played quite a big part in how I felt. I studied graphic design, where my peers were mostly trendy hipster types who were blessed with the gift of the gab and not at all lacking in confidence and self-belief, and those were traits that were actively encouraged. It's an industry where you're not allowed to be shy, you need to be ultra-slick and know how to charm people. I was a total fish out of water and felt massively intimidated by my peers. It was something I was really not cut out for and I no longer have any interest at all in the subject. But at least this forum got a nice logo out of it, you can thank my degree for that.

I imagine if you did a "nerdier" subject you'd get more quiet, introverted types. I work in a university town (not the one I went to) and there does seem to be a lot more diversity amongst students here.

[Dougella]

^ I see what you mean. Oh yes you did the logo! We all thank your degree for that.

[choirgirl]

That's very sad. I assume there's often other stuff going on in the background, but a young person may reach crisis point more easily than an older adult, and 20 isn't very old or mature in the scheme of things. In my day, at my uni, if you couldn't hack it you were out, or at best, you might be allowed to retake. But then we weren't paying fees. There were counselling services though. I was not aware of any accommodations, certainly not for giving a presentation because of anxiety. The idea would have been laughable. I used to know someone who managed to take time out and go back, but she was anorexic and that's easy to prove and likely to be taken seriously. Biscuits' uni sounds like it did a great job.

[biscuits]

^^ that is awful!!

^ It really did

[Sunrise]

Originally Posted by The Devil, Probably.

I was threatened with eviction for self harm when I was uni when someone who knew about it reported it to the accommodation warden. I have no idea why the accommodation officer was the one to stick his nose into my business. I was a drunken mess in my first year. I should maybe email XXXX Uni and ask if they wish to offer an apology twenty years too late.

They sent security round when I was threatening to harm myself, who were not very sympathetic to say the least. Because obviously the best way to deal with someone in that situation is to get a roided up thug in a hi-viz jacket to intimidate them. And to think people wonder why I'm reluctant to seek help and why I don't trust people. Painful memories of when my mental health was at it's worse.

I suppose they don't really have people properly trained to deal with these things working at universities and all they can really do is refer people to an appropriate service. They do have a duty of care, but as it's adults rather than children I'm not sure how involved they can get with a situation. Is it more that they can only advise rather than directly intervene? I suppose they would need to judge how much risk they think that person is of harming themselves. It must be a difficult call to make.

[BFG_]

I was informed by my university when I was struggling with my course that the course I was on probably wasn't suitable for someone with social anxiety. They then realise they'd just admitted a course they were running was excluding people with a disability back tracked and refunded my course fees for the second year.

[biscuits]

@Sunrise, TDP - your experiences of university are absolutely disgraceful! I'm so sorry that you both had those compassionless experiences. You both deserved compassion and support . It has been really upsetting to read your accounts . You were both in crisis and the responses you have detailed sound like ones of fear rather than support. Do you think it is probably due to those individual people having no training and no idea how to respond?


In terms of duty of care, the notion that students are adults at the age of 18 is weak, it avoids moral obligations that I believe should become statutory obligations. Natasha's case should become a landmark case and prompt changing in law. Universities should have a linked GP surgery, on-site counsellors, mental health advocates. There are also courses for educational professionals to carry out Mental Health First Aid - these individuals will have links with MH support and agencies and support students to seek help.

Although, we have a Tory government... so...


@BFG what the actual truck! That is terrible. What a ridiculous thing for them to say. It's sad that they didn't allow you to complete the course. Good on you for getting your fees back.

[Sunrise]

I don't want to derail this thread by talking about myself, but I think in my case the help I needed at that time wasn't something the university could offer and I'm not sure if was their place to offer it. The tutor who made those comments was of more mature years and seemed to have some old-fashioned beliefs about mental illness, and the tactless and blunt way he worded it I feel was inappropriate, but I suppose there was an element of truth to it in as much as I probably wasn't well enough at the time to function in that kind of environment.

The other incidents I don't really want to talk about because I find it upsetting and would rather forget they ever happened. I think it was unfortunate that it got to the stage that it did. If someone is self-harming or threatening to harm themselves it must be a difficult situation to handle and I think they were ill-equipped to deal with it. I have no idea what sort of training people are given when it comes to those kinds of incidents, but I feel university accomodation should have staff who are trained to support people experiencing a mental health crisis who can treat the person with respect, kindness and compassion.

I don't think my experiences are unique and I've head plenty of stories of people really struggling with their mental health at university. I live near a university town and there have been several suicides there in the past few years, and I imagine plenty of others have struggled to some extent. Although I think this goes far beyond universities not offering enough support, and young people experiencing mental health struggles is a much wider issue in society in general. There's more awareness of and support available for mental health than ever, yet so many people are struggling. What's gone wrong?

[Dougella]

^ I would think maybe especially back then the staff in general wouldn't have had any training in dealing with someone in a mental health crisis, so unless they had any personal experience they probably wouldn't really have known what to do. That is why there should really be specifically trained people who could come and help someone in that situation who really know what they're doing, and advise the other staff with what to do.

[Amara 94]

Originally Posted by choirgirl

That's very sad. I assume there's often other stuff going on in the background, but a young person may reach crisis point more easily than an older adult, and 20 isn't very old or mature in the scheme of things. In my day, at my uni, if you couldn't hack it you were out, or at best, you might be allowed to retake. But then we weren't paying fees. There were counselling services though. I was not aware of any accommodations, certainly not for giving a presentation because of anxiety. The idea would have been laughable. I used to know someone who managed to take time out and go back, but she was anorexic and that's easy to prove and likely to be taken seriously. Biscuits' uni sounds like it did a great job.

Yeah I think even in the real world anxiety still isn’t taken seriously widely. But is that really alright?

[biscuits]

^ congratulations on getting onto the Masters, Nanuq!

It baffling to me how everywhere seems to take a different approach. Perhaps it depends on the priorities of the people who are high up in the university. Some people are very passionate about inclusion, mental well-being, and providing supportive mental health provision. Whereas some people will be more focused on academia.

Fostering a culture of inclusivity where students feel safe to seek help, should be a top priority. I think making a safety plan and building up a support network should be a statutory part of freshers week.

[Jen.]

Some really horrible experiences in this thread Hopefully something good might have come out of this Bristol case in terms of universities and even schools attempting to be more understanding of the issue.

When I was at uni it never even felt like an option to request not doing presentations or having anything in place to make certain situations feel more comfortable, and that wasn't even too long ago (about 10-13 years). During the first year when I immediately started avoided going to anything, it was flagged up but they just seemed to believe I was lazy. When I finally got the courage to tell a university campus doctor that I was struggling with the social part of it his solution was to sign me up to a group therapy session (which was starting literally 30 minutes after the appointment!), which largely seemed to be about depression and general anxiety anyway - I didn't go, obviously. I only did three presentations that I can remember, and I managed to get through them (as always with these things once over it feels like no big deal), but if I could have chosen not to I definitely would have done. They just reminded me of being in school, all the anxiety during the build-up and thinking up excuses to postpone them - if it was known that they weren't even a possibility it would have been so much easier. I would avoid taking certain modules that interested me purely because I'd heard there were elements of presentation or group work in them.