Does SA make you more open-minded?

[Pearl_Jam]

I've been thinking lately that people with low self-esteem/introverted in general tend to be more open-minded/creative compared to outgoing people,, what do you think? I remember hearing something like this on Derren Brown a while ago, that it is something to do with being more suggestible

What do yoou think??

[Tom-]

I don't think I am more suggestible, i tend to analyse evey situation. I am pretty creative though.

[Amber Fyre]

I wouldn't say more suggestible, but open minded probably.

Open minded is the opposite of suggestible! Open minded means you're not brainwashed by everyone and can listen to others and take in what they say. Closed-minded people tend to be brain-washed and whatever 'official' nonsence which is suggested to them they believe.

I have found that SAers tend to be more open-minded, they tend to be more thoughtful and these two characteristics tend to go together.

[hardy]

Saers in general are no different to others in open minded ness (say in morality, politcs etc) but in one area they are very closed minded .

What could be more closed minded than being convinced people are mostly unlikely to like you?!

[Innerspace]

I don't buy it myself.

From much of what I've seen written on SA sites over the last few years I'd say that SA'ers are just as likely to be closed minded as anyone else.

Most people's attitudes to their own SA here on this site is extremely closed-minded too. I mean most people buy into a single scenario that they have SA and life is hopeless. The reality is very different, but many are closed to this fact. I used to be like this myself so know what this is like. At the time I used to consider myself open-minded too, but of course I was only being open to the things I chose to believe, rather than the bigger picture.

Some SA individuals are more open-minded than many other people, but I doubt that this has much to do with actually having SA.
Many other SA individuals are very closed-minded too. I'm not that suggestible either. I choose what I think and am not influenced easily. Maybe some SA people can be more creative simply due to maybe having more time alone and channelling their effort/talents into solitary pursuits such as creativity of varying sorts.

[Amber Fyre]

Well I think a lot of SAers typically have more time to listen and actually think than most people. Most people just talk and talk and talk, never listen. I think if you're more withdrawn you'd have more time to contemplate things and think things through. They tend to think about life more, which can make people more or less open minded. But I don't know, maybe I just so happen to know closed-minded confident people and open-minded SAers and shy people.

[absolution]

I read this thread yesterday and my first thought was "yes, people with SA are more open-minded". Actually, "tolerant" was the word I was thinking of right away. But, I've been thinking about it today and I'm not so sure now. I've come to believe that it just depends on the person themselves; whether they are super confident or very shy. Looking at my own family, my sister is quite bubbly and confident, but very thoughtful and tolerant too. My brother who is also outgoing, is a lot more selfish, although I forgive him for that I do agree with Amberfirez in that SA sufferers and shy people are more likely to be good listeners because generally we tend to spend more time by ourselves and think things through a lot more. But, that's just a generalisation really; everyone is different and I think it just all comes down to your personality.

Ben

People with SA are the shitest bunch of folk you could meet. Anxiety is f*cking miserable, period - no silver linings to this dark cloud. It does not make you more open-minded, intelligent, tolerant or whotnor and to suggest so is akin to suggesting that blindness is more condusive to being a Formula One driver than able-sightedness.

[Innerspace]

Originally Posted by amberfirez

Well I think a lot of SAers typically have more time to listen and actually think than most people. Most people just talk and talk and talk, never listen. I think if you're more withdrawn you'd have more time to contemplate things and think things through. They tend to think about life more, which can make people more or less open minded. But I don't know, maybe I just so happen to know closed-minded confident people and open-minded SAers and shy people.

Hi Amber,

Further to my previous post on this topic, I don't think SA'ers make particularly good listeners either. This is evident on this board too.
The art of genuinely good listening is the ability to put yourself in the place of the person talking... without putting your own interpretation on what is being said and comparing it to our own experiences. Listening requires staying with the issues of that person and addressing them as that person's issues, but on the board, as in life, most people immediately take in what was said and measure it up against their own experiences. On the board this usually results in the respondent going straight into how the issue also affects them, rather than conversing on how the issue affects the original poster.

In 'real life', this results in the person listening, staying in their own frame of reference rather than entering into the frame of reference of the speaker. This is not good listening skills at all.
With this in mind it overturns the popular myth that people with SA will automatically make good counsellors to others with that disorder. SA by its very nature means sufferers of it become introspective with their thinking and conscious of themselves to a big extent. These things really do hamper effective listening skills because the SA person can remain focused on themselves rather than who they are supposed to be listening to.

Yes, many SA people spend much of their time thinking, but the vast majority of that thinking is inward and about self. Being a good listener actually requires us to suspend our own thinking in order to hear the verbalisation of the thinking of another. So our thinking ability doesn't even come into effective listening skills really.

To be honest, the more introspctive the person and his/her thinking, the less open-minded they become because they get lost in their own thoughts and lose perspective. The more self-orientated a person's thinking is, the less use they are as an effective listener because they generally can't see and understand where the speaker is coming from.

There is so much more to listening than just keeping your mouth shut whilst someone else speaks. OK, I know a lot of counsellors, but in all honesty, of all the genuinely good listeners I know, not a single one of them is SA. Thinking things through is irellevant too, because the only person who needs to think things through is the talker, not the listener. It's the talker who has the issues. Any open-mindedness on behalf of the listener needs to come from empathy rather than sympathy, and from the ability of the listener not to judge the speaker no matter what s/he brings up.

Unless we are an advice giver, what we make of what someone else says is not relevant, so to be a good listener we would have to remove our preconceived ideas and our own take on the situation described to us. So our abilities to think inwardly do not contribute to being a genuinely good listener to others.

Of course many SA people could be good listeners and also be very open-minded people generally, but I doubt that this is as a result of their SA. More in spite of it I'd say.


EDIT: I just want to add that I do realise that on a board such as this people will naturally compare experiences and relate their own experiences and how they differ or are similar. There is nothing wrong with this at all, and it can be very useful too. It's helped me a lot in my time here actually. My point being only that having SA and interacting on here about it doesn't necessarily make us any more open-minded and/or better listeners.

[Amber Fyre]

Originally Posted by Jack

People with SA are the shitest bunch of folk you could meet. Anxiety is f*cking miserable, period - no silver linings to this dark cloud. It does not make you more open-minded, intelligent, tolerant or whotnor and to suggest so is akin to suggesting that blindness is more condusive to being a Formula One driver than able-sightedness.

Just because someone has SA does not mean they are a pointless individual with no hope and no good qualities. SA can lead to better qualities, like listening skills. They in turn can lead to other things. I have found qualities in SAers that the majority of other people don't have. There are a lot of qualities I have due to SA that I'm glad to have. If I'd been a non-SAer and confident I never would have had the time to think about so many things, to listen to people, to understand people. I probably do better at uni because I have no social life too. Gives me time to work and not care what others think, coz there's no people I know at uni to judge me.
So don't say we're all shit people as you did. Maybe you feel that way but it doesn't mean the rest of us do.

[Amber Fyre]

In response to what Innerspace said I do agree somewhat. But I think it also depends on the state of the person with SA.
If someone has SA really badly and also suffers from depression and numerous other conditons, then they probably don't care about what other people have to say, or about anything much. When I was like this (yes I'm using personal experience but I have nothing else to go off!) I felt like I was in limbo. I didn't feel alive but saw the world from a different perspective than other people. I was open minded about the world because I felt disconnected from it. None of it seemed real.
With regards to listeners on the board, I don't know if you can compare that to real life. When I'm on the board I state how I feel, what I've been through, my opinions. In real life I never do this. I listen. (and i mean listen, not just stay silent). I think people are different on the net to real life. I feel I am a better listener due to my SA. I also feel I am more open minded due to my SA. Obviously SA has a different effect on each person, particularly due to when they developed it. I have been really shy my entire life and that's why I think it's made me a better listener and more open minded. If you develop it later perhaps it doesn't have this effect.
Everyone's different so perhaps having SA only makes certain people more open minded, whilst making others more closed minded. I can only talk of personal experience afterall.

Originally Posted by amberfirez

Just because someone has SA does not mean they are a pointless individual with no hope and no good qualities. SA can lead to better qualities, like listening skills. They in turn can lead to other things. I have found qualities in SAers that the majority of other people don't have. There are a lot of qualities I have due to SA that I'm glad to have. If I'd been a non-SAer and confident I never would have had the time to think about so many things, to listen to people, to understand people. I probably do better at uni because I have no social life too. Gives me time to work and not care what others think, coz there's no people I know at uni to judge me.
So don't say we're all shit people as you did. Maybe you feel that way but it doesn't mean the rest of us do.

Sorry, that came across the wrong way.

SA people aren't the shitest bunch of folk you could meet, otherwise I've just offended everyone I've come across at a meet. What I meant was that it would be preferable to have met people in other, 'nicer' circumstances, whereby no-one had SA or other emotional/mental/behavioural conditions.

As for trying to find a silver lining (in this case endearing qualities) out of said conditions I honestly don't believe there are any. More to the point I don't want to believe there are any, as to do so makes one more inclined to embrace or romanticise it. Regardless of what angsty, Bell Jar-carrying A-level lit students may think, there is nothing romantic about depression.

That people with anxiety and depression probably have more personal time on their hands due to a lack of sociability is obvious, hence they may read up on stuff or do creative stuff or whatever. However having been there I'd much rather be out with friends and girlfriends having fun, than sat at home melancholically strumming my guitar or spending hours reading up on the causes of the First World War or the Ottoman Empire and subsequent hotlinks or whatever on Wikipedia.

[Amber Fyre]

I agree that many people would prefer a social life to creative talents, but I think I'd prefer the creative ones personally. But then again I'm not really a social bug. I have my few friends that I see when I need to, don't want to go out every night partying. I've found that SA gives you more time to think (which can lead to open mindeness), more time to develop your creative talents (draw, write, etc), but you have no social life.
SA has more drawbacks than good points I agree, but that doesn't mean I should ignore the good points. I prefer to see the positive side of things these days. By focusing on the negative you just get depressed. I'm realistic, not optimistic nor pessimistic. (SAer's tend to be the latter, I know I used to be).

[Innerspace]

Originally Posted by amberfirez

In response to what Innerspace said I do agree somewhat. But I think it also depends on the state of the person with SA.
If someone has SA really badly and also suffers from depression and numerous other conditons, then they probably don't care about what other people have to say, or about anything much. When I was like this (yes I'm using personal experience but I have nothing else to go off!) I felt like I was in limbo. I didn't feel alive but saw the world from a different perspective than other people. I was open minded about the world because I felt disconnected from it. None of it seemed real.
With regards to listeners on the board, I don't know if you can compare that to real life. When I'm on the board I state how I feel, what I've been through, my opinions. In real life I never do this. I listen. (and i mean listen, not just stay silent). I think people are different on the net to real life. I feel I am a better listener due to my SA. I also feel I am more open minded due to my SA. Obviously SA has a different effect on each person, particularly due to when they developed it. I have been really shy my entire life and that's why I think it's made me a better listener and more open minded. If you develop it later perhaps it doesn't have this effect.
Everyone's different so perhaps having SA only makes certain people more open minded, whilst making others more closed minded. I can only talk of personal experience afterall.

Hi Amber,

Thanks for the reply.
Fair do's. You are speaking from experience so I can't argue with that. In my own experience I've not found SA people to be any more open-minded or better listeners generally, but of course I'm sure there are exceptions. If SA has helped you acquire these skills then I'm really happy for you that you've found good in what can be an horrendous and debilitating problem.

I do appreciate that the board is different than 'real life', and I posted an edit on that post after I'd taken a phonecall because I wanted to point out that I realised this even though I neglected to say so in the post.

Anyhow, the potential for people with SA to become very good listeners and to widen their outlook and thinking is very much there.
My point only being that I see very little evidence that this potential is actually fulfilled by the majority. Most are very much at the inward thinking stage in the sense that it narrows their lives as opposed to opening it up.

There is immense potential for self-awareness and open-mindedness within people with SA, but few trust in themselves enough to explore that awareness and openess. Part of this is due to most people with SA only buying into the things that confirm their own self-concept. Basically, if they think they are crap, they only accept evidence that supposts this idea and they reject things that challenge that idea. So if there are 100 people in a room and 99 say a person is good, but 1 says that person is crap... the only opinion that will matter is the one person who said we were crap, because you can bet your life that's the opinion that will play on our minds most. This shows how narrow SA thinking can be. In essence, we stay SA because we are closed to the fact that things can actually be any different. A true open mind will accept that there is in fact more than just what we ourselves see, then that open mind would be open to and explore other avenues rather than become stuck within the only way it knows and accepts.

I like your attitude, Amber. There is a realistic optimism that can only be helpful to you.

[diplodocus]

I'm not sure if having SA has made me more open-minded but I think getting rejected alot has. I spent hours soul-searching, introspectively thinking why people rejected me. I ended up at the conclusion its because those people were close-minded and didn't like things that were different to them. So I figured if I expected to be understood and accepted or even tolerated I better at least be willing to extend that courtesy to others.
I realised I was very close-minded in some regards so I went about addressing my own predjudices.
Now I think I am pretty open-minded, except as Innerspace says when it comes to believing that others won't judge me lol.

[pdjkeelan]

Most people with SA analyse everything possible, alot of outgoing people don't think, they just act. Therefore i do think you're right that SA people are more open-minded to new thoughts than outgoing people, but like was said before we also close-minded in other aspects.

[hardy]

"I'm not sure if having SA has made me more open-minded but I think getting rejected alot has. I spent hours soul-searching, introspectively thinking why people rejected me. I ended up at the conclusion its because those people were close-minded and didn't like things that were different to them. So I figured if I expected to be understood and accepted or even tolerated I better at least be willing to extend that courtesy to others.
I realised I was very close-minded in some regards so I went about addressing my own predjudices.
Now I think I am pretty open-minded, except as Innerspace says when it comes to believing that others won't judge me lol."

I think that applies to me too, almost exactly ! so what i previously said I retract partially! Thanks for that insight Dee Show.
as you mention it wasn't predudice or closemindedness that was the root of Sa after all ,it is mainly our delusion that people judge us more harshly than they actually do.

Originally Posted by Ray

I've never been one to believe that people with SA are more intelligent, open-minded or astute or whatever. However Jack, you have often said that your (alleged) friends and acquaintances in 'the real world' are (allegedly) quite fond of you, and believe that you're a really great guy (why you felt the need to inform us of that is frankly beyond me, tbh...). I think it's fair to say (and please somebody correct me, if I'm wrong) that the vast majority of people familiar with you here on SA-UK, probably (to put it politely) don't quite share the (alleged) opinion of your (alleged) non-SA friends and acquaintances. To me, that example, while hardly being scientific, does suggest that people with SA are particularly astute judges of character.

Ray.

Like I said in The Gutter Ray, good luck with life. If I were to offer one piece of advice to you right now, it would be to try not to make yourself look any sillier. While you may not have any face to save in your private life, don't allow yourself to be open to ridicule and derision online. From what I can see, while being a solitary activity, it is your last bastion of support. I'd hate to think what you might do to yourself should you lose what respect you have left. I never want to be looking through the paper, and someway in find under the large piece about a granny who found a piece of bread in her loaf that had a image of the virgin Mary on it, a small story recounting the tragic tale of a sad Irish loner who after watching his daily dose of daytime tv, surprised all by actually going out of his front door, before proceeding to calmly jump off a multi-storey car park roof while flapping his hands believing he could fly.

Good luck with life Ray. I hope in future it deals you a better hand than it has done so far.

Originally Posted by Ray

I'll leave it for others to decide whether or not the point I made was silly. Thanks for your advice Jack, but I have no fear at all of potentially looking silly. If I did, I would never post at all. Ironically, it's only when people make a concerted effort to look less silly that they end up looking very silly indeed. I think that may be what you are doing right now.

Ray.

I'm glad you don't recognise your profound ability to make yourself look stupid Raymondo. They say that ignorance is bliss - it seems in your case that it is true.

Just remember Ray that while ignorance may be bliss, jumping off a tall building while flapping your hands isn't generally condusive to your health and wellbeing. Remember what happened to Icarus when he tried to fly. In case you weren't in school that day (something tells me you weren't a regular attendee), here's the link.

Originally Posted by Ray

Again, I'll reiterate that it's not for me to decide whether I'm stupid or ignorant. I'd hate to accuse you of being stupid, but I think a genuinely clever person would know when to stop digging. If people disagree with my original post, they will anyway, regardless of you ranting and waffling on.

Ray.

Enjoy your weekend Raymondo. Being the good soul that I am I have checked the good old Radio Times for you and it seems that Countdown is on at 4:00pm and Deal Or No Deal is on at 5:40pm. Thank God this 'must-see' tv is on, otherwise your computer would never get a break, huh?

[mico]

Just want to get my say in on the original topic before Jack gets this thread deleted...

Originally Posted by Pearl_Jam

I've been thinking lately that people with low self-esteem/introverted in general tend to be more open-minded/creative compared to outgoing people,, what do you think? I remember hearing something like this on Derren Brown a while ago, that it is something to do with being more suggestible

What do yoou think??

Personally, flicking through this thread and reading the replies of the guru of SAUK (aka innerspace), I have to say I almost completely agree with what he says (I say this because he always puts it into better words than me, so I'm not going to repeat what he's already said, only crapper and I say 'almost' because I haven't read it all :embarass: ).

Just to contribute my own input though: I do believe there can be something that is possibly often mistaken for open-mindedness. I think it would be reasonable to say that many SAers disconnect themselves from the world to some extent or other. This is an invitation to form your own opinion on what you see, an opinion that isn't so much influenced by popular culture since many SA folk find themselve outside of this culture in a sense (bearing in mind that socialising is part of popular culture).

So, with this in mind, I think there's a good percentage of people with SA that have different opinions to the ones flying around inside the popular culture bubble.

What I don't think, is that this is open-mindedness. Maybe it's that you've been pushed in a different direction, but that doesn't make you open to all directions. From my experience on here, SA folk can be just as stubborn and closed minded as the rest of the population, I see no difference in mentallity other than what is shaped by experience.




mico

Originally Posted by mico

Just want to get my say in on the original topic before Jack gets this thread deleted...

Apologies!

I'm off out now anyway so Raymondo will have to find some other way of occupying himself before 'Countdown' is on tomorrow. Maybe they have a copy of Michael "Betty" Crawford's Condorman at his local Blockbuster.

[Pearl_Jam]

Jack, please don't make personal attacks thats not what this thread is about, cheers. No-one needs to be patronized here

Just to contribute my own input though: I do believe there can be something that is possibly often mistaken for open-mindedness. I think it would be reasonable to say that many SAers disconnect themselves from the world to some extent or other. This is an invitation to form your own opinion on what you see, an opinion that isn't so much influenced by popular culture since many SA folk find themselve outside of this culture in a sense (bearing in mind that socialising is part of popular culture).

Agree largely with this, in general though I think spending a lot of time alone has given me a totally different perspective on life in general (for better or worse) some of which I appreciate having, and can keep when I get over SA. But then if I was totally willing to change my beliefs the depression and sa would be gone I'm sure, and I could just 'be myself' (whatever that is..) I suppose I need to be more 'open minded' in order to get over SA

[Jessie Phillips]

I haven't read this thread all the way through ...

... but I have read enough to notice that some of the posts have ruffled a few feathers. Which is hardly surprising, because it's a sensitive issue. I do not think that anyone here is an inherently bad person, quite the opposite.

There's been a number of threads lately where people speculate that social-anxiety sufferers have some positive traits - for example, open-mindedness, intelligence, or something else.

My opinion of all of these speculations is that they're all a form of avoidance perpetuation. There's absolutely no established scientific proof that social anxiety sufferers are more open minded, or more intelligent, or more considerate, or are more likely to display any other supposedly "good" mental or behaviour patterns than the general population. All we have are speculations. (I defy anyone to correct me on that one.)

But it's understandable that people don't want to face up to this. Coming to terms with your social anxiety can be quite scary. No-one likes facing up to their fears. That's why you come up with excuses not to - such as vague notions about SAers being somehow "nicer" people. Drinkers and drug addicts often try to convince themselves that their drug habit makes them better people for much the same reason.

But unfortunately, this type of thinking perpetuates the addiction - and that's half of the problem. It's the same with social anxiety sufferers. The more you try to convince yourself that your behaviour makes you somehow better, the less likely you are to face up to your fears or seek help.

If social anxiety and agoraphobia are left untreated, they will get worse. Maybe you think your problems aren't that bad right now, but if we continue to isolate ourselves from the world around us more than we really have to, then we will eventually go truly crazy - just like the earliest inmates in Pennsylvania's prisons.

Social anxiety is our own mental prison - and we need help to break out of it. We don't need to become "institutionalised" by it.

[Amber Fyre]

Originally Posted by Jessie Phillips

There's been a number of threads lately where people speculate that social-anxiety sufferers have some positive traits - for example, open-mindedness, intelligence, or something else.

My opinion of all of these speculations is that they're all a form of avoidance perpetuation. There's absolutely no established scientific proof that social anxiety sufferers are more open minded, or more intelligent, or more considerate, or are more likely to display any other supposedly "good" mental or behaviour patterns than the general population. All we have are speculations. (I defy anyone to correct me on that one.)

But it's understandable that people don't want to face up to this. Coming to terms with your social anxiety can be quite scary. No-one likes facing up to their fears. That's why you come up with excuses not to - such as vague notions about SAers being somehow "nicer" people. Drinkers and drug addicts often try to convince themselves that their drug habit makes them better people for much the same reason.

No, there is no scientific proof. Actually, there has been little scientfic work on SA. And you know what, even if there was, it doesn't mean it would be right. We are not stating here whether what we are saying here is scientifically correct, we are simply discussing it and having a debate. We are making observations, giving opinions. Why do I have to back up opinions with scientific studies? I'm not a scientist, and to be honest, a lot of what they say is complete rubbish. Most of it is theory, opinion in itself. Intelligent guesses if you will. Scientfic work begin with discussion, debate, that's how they form theories and test them. SA is a branch of psychology, which is mostly full of made up-theories which everyone else debates and says are wrong.

Anyway, I don't think I'm wrong for saying that SA may have had some good effects. I am not denying SA, or saying that it's a good thing. You cannot compare it to addiction. I personally think SA has given me a few good qualities. Yes, it's given me a lot of "bad" qualities which hurt my life, but I shouldn't ignore the bad.

This discussion has annoyed me, and probably a lot of others.
I am simply giving an opinion. The people on here suggesting that SA may create some good qualities in a person have been shot down. Why aren't we allowed our opinions and observations? This is a debate. Most of the people who have stated that SA has no redeming features at all have been very aggressive about saying so. These are opinions, not facts. Nobody is defiantly right or wrong here. I have my opinions, you have yours. I know that for me SA has had some good effects, maybe not for you, but it has for me. SA makes you think negatively, and I am beyond the worst of it. Perhaps I'm simply getting out into the light and can now see some goodness which was shielded from me before by SA?

[Concept]

It depends what you mean by open-minded. Am I selective? Yes, unfortunately, though if I were ever to take faith in karma I don't have a lot of choice. So it balances itself out.

It's all well saying to yourself that you're open-minded, but offer yourself to the wolves where a situation demands that an opinion be formed and cemented, or a choice be made as to where you stand, and it isn't so easy.

I'd like to say I'm open-minded, though I'm not sure how much of that comes out from desperation or depression than genuine open-mindedness in terms of my personality. Perhaps one of the requisites for being socially isolated is that you tend to be more open to the prospect of chance, and what people have to express, think and feel. It certainly encourages introspection and reflection on what may be happening around people, and usually with more thought and response, people are generally more tolerant of each other.

However, I do shy away from a huge quantity of people. Usually I end up feeling guilty for simply looking for people to talk to and then retracting when there's no common association: i.e. they're more confident than me, they're less aware or intelligent (which I feel awful about because I don't see myself as particularly intelligent, just introspective), too quiet and unresponsive (the irony doesn't escape me), they're not as isolated as me, they talk too much etc. etc.

Perhaps being isolated can set in stone all those expected barriers up and keep them maintained, as well as open avenues up elsewhere.

[Jessie Phillips]

For anyone who thinks that social anxiety has positive effects:

Anyway, I don't think I'm wrong for saying that SA may have had some good effects. I am not denying SA, or saying that it's a good thing.

Yeah, and drug addiction can have some good effects too. Go to http://www.erowid.org and you'll find loads of testimonials of people who think drugs have done them good. (there's probably one or two that I've posted in there too)

Okay, so maybe a few of those contributors are suffering from dependence, and are in denial of it. What about people who acknowledge their addiction? I quote the film Trainspotting ...

People think it's all about misery and desperation and death and all that shite, which is not to be ignored, but what they forget is the pleasure of it. Otherwise we wouldn't do it. After all, we're not fvcking stupid. At least, we're not that fvcking stupid. Take the best orgasm you ever had, multiply it by a thousand and you're still nowhere near it. When you're on junk you have only one worry: scoring. When you're off it you are suddenly obliged to worry about all sorts of other shite. Got no money: can't get pished. Got money: drinking too much. Can't get a bird: no chance of a ride. Got a bird: too much hassle. You have to worry about bills, about food, about some football team that never fvcking wins, about human relationships and all the things that really don't matter when you've got a sincere and truthful junk habit.

... and who's been there but doesn't identify with that? Seriously - I believe that drug addiction can give you an interesting perspective on life.

The reason drug addiction is considered an illness is because it makes you die much younger if you don't get treatment. The same is true for social anxiety - albeit perhaps to a lesser extent. I don't want to get into a debate about which illness kills you more quickly, the point is, they're both illnesses and they both make you die younger.

If you're ill, you need to get treatment, it's as simple as that. You do not need to make excuses to avoid treatment under some pretext that your illness makes you a better person, when it's hard enough to get decent treatment as it is, without you trying to talk yourself out of it.

And who says you can't compare drug addiction to social anxiety anyway? I just did. Like you say, we're having a discussion.

But please think about the consequences of your actions. When you spread the idea that social anxiety is good for you in some way, the government picks it up and reads it, and thinks, "Oh look - it turns out that social anxiety isn't actually bad for people after all. Let's stop wasting NHS money treating it, so that we can either cut taxes, or spend money treating illnesses that people actually want to recover from instead."

I stick by my previous post. Social anxiety is like your own prison inside your brain. When you're in any prison or hostage situation long enough, the world outside becomes too scary, so you come to love the walls, and you become institutionalised. The inmates effectively become their own guards. Social anxiety is no different. You know that on a rational level, it doesn't make sense for you not to want to escape that prison - which is perhaps why you come up with rationalisations, such as SA being "good for you" somehow. You're still not quite convinced though, and you figure you can't convince yourself unless you can convince someone else. Which is perhaps why you test the ideas by posting them on forums like this one.

A few other people who are equally as institutionalised as you might agree with you - but fortunately, not all of us buy it.

Forgive me if I sound a bit ranty and angry, I'm not without problems of my own too. But I can spot avoidance perpetuation behaviour a mile off - because I used to do it too. And I know that this behaviour never did me any good at all. This post is absolutely not intended to be personal, despite how it might read; rather, I address it to anyone who thinks SA might have positive effects.

Of course, I can't be sure that you're only trying to justify your own avoidance, because I don't have supernatural powers, and the only person who really knows what's going on inside your head is you. However, even if you're not trying to justify your own avoidance, someone else will use your words to justify their avoidance. And that's why I feel I have to make a stand against it.

Is this making any sense?

[Amber Fyre]

Originally Posted by Jessie Phillips

For anyone who thinks that social anxiety has positive effects:
Yeah, and drug addiction can have some good effects too. Go to http://www.erowid.org and you'll find loads of testimonials of people who think drugs have done them good. (there's probably one or two that I've posted in there too)
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I AM NOT A DRUG TAKER!!!!! SA and addicts are not the same flipping thing!!!!!!!! Stop saying they are!!!! Jesus Christ.

Originally Posted by Jessie Phillips

But please think about the consequences of your actions. When you spread the idea that social anxiety is good for you in some way, the government picks it up and reads it, and thinks, "Oh look - it turns out that social anxiety isn't actually bad for people after all. Let's stop wasting NHS money treating it, so that we can either cut taxes, or spend money treating illnesses that people actually want to recover from instead."
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Erm, the government isn't reading my posts, and they don't give a damn about SA anyway!!!!

Originally Posted by Jessie Phillips

I stick by my previous post. Social anxiety is like your own prison inside your brain. When you're in any prison or hostage situation long enough, the world outside becomes too scary, so you come to love the walls, and you become institutionalised. The inmates effectively become their own guards. Social anxiety is no different. You know that on a rational level, it doesn't make sense for you not to want to escape that prison - which is perhaps why you come up with rationalisations, such as SA being "good for you" somehow. You're still not quite convinced though, and you figure you can't convince yourself unless you can convince someone else. Which is perhaps why you test the ideas by posting them on forums like this one.

A few other people who are equally as institutionalised as you might agree with you - but fortunately, not all of us buy it.

Forgive me if I sound a bit ranty and angry, I'm not without problems of my own too. But I can spot avoidance perpetuation behaviour a mile off - because I used to do it too. And I know that this behaviour never did me any good at all. This post is absolutely not intended to be personal, despite how it might read; rather, I address it to anyone who thinks SA might have positive effects.

Of course, I can't be sure that you're only trying to justify your own avoidance, because I don't have supernatural powers, and the only person who really knows what's going on inside your head is you. However, even if you're not trying to justify your own avoidance, someone else will use your words to justify their avoidance. And that's why I feel I have to make a stand against it.

Is this making any sense?
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So I can't state my opinions? When did I ever say that I was avoiding my conditon? I accept it but also accept that it has had some, small, good qualities!!!! I am not telling the world that everyone wants SA, it's the greatest thing ever. It's bad, it hurts, we don't want it. but I am not a complete pessimist!
What am I meant to say? "Boo-hoo I have SA. It's the end of the world! It's only bad, no good. I might as well die" Sorry for having a positive outlook, I better go and kill myself now so I don;t harm any more people by telling them that there is some good in life.

I remember when this site used to contain people who were supportive. People who sometimes disagreed but gave their opinons in a NON-RUDE way! I have had to defend myself so many times on here in the last few days for having a damn opinion! You have yours, I accept that. But don't attack me as wrong. I KNOW that what I said is true for ME. I didn;t say anyone else, just for ME. You can't argue with that, so leave me alone.

[Amber Fyre]

Originally Posted by Jessie Phillips

I can spot avoidance perpetuation behaviour a mile off - because I used to do it too. And I know that this behaviour never did me any good at all. [/size][/font]

And just for the record, never think you know who I am or how I think/feel or what I do inside my head. I am certainly not someone who goes into denial about things. I accept everything about me, and I mean everything.