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  #1  
Old 29th October 2020, 11:45
Tonkin Tonkin is offline
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Question The Happiness Trap 8-Week Online Program - ACT Acceptance and Commitment Therapy

Has anyone done ACT therapy or done the The Happiness Trap 8-Week Online Program?

https://thehappinesstrap.com/8-week-program/

I've just started reading The Happiness Trap book by Russ Harris who does ACT (Acceptance and Commitment Therapy).

I quite like the stuff I've read so far in the book but see there is also an 8-week online program.

However, the course is currently $145 (about £115) reduced from $295 for a few days.

That's quite a bit of cash, especially as I'm prone to buying courses and not doing them (not bought any therapy style ones before though).

So has anyone done it?

Or has anyone gotten much from ACT?

I'm not far into the book quite like the stuff about adding "I'm having thoughts about..." to your thoughts to create some distance from them, eg instead of "I'm a loser" thinking I'm having thoughts that I'm a loser".

I think this is a bit like the noting or labeling technique in meditation? Where you label thoughts as helpful or unhelpful.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FjI9v-VYwZY

The idea, I think, is that you if you do this enough, when those thoughts arise, you're like "oh its just another thought, that's funny" then move on.

Anyone into this stuff?
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  #2  
Old 29th October 2020, 12:38
Jen. Jen. is offline
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Default Re: The Happiness Trap 8-Week Online Program - ACT Acceptance and Commitment Therapy

My therapist started ACT with me last year for social anxiety (not for "happiness", so I don't know if this is relevant) and it's probably the thing I've found most useful. It definitely helps with avoidance having the mental tools available to motivate me to do certain things. E.g. instead of waiting outside the post office for 15 minutes trying to talk myself into going inside before either turning around and going home or reluctantly going in while feeling very anxious the whole time, I can generally walk in relatively confidently most of the time now and the anxiety is definitely less in situations like that. I still haven't quite worked out how to use it to feel less uncomfortable talking to people I know within hearing distance of strangers, which is probably the biggest problem, but trying to experience thoughts/feelings externally seems to be a really helpful reminder that avoidance is only delaying anxiety rather than actually avoiding it and so it helps to get through situations that I would have previously tried not to do.

I'm not sure I would do an online course like it... just sounds like it's basically paying to read a book stretched out over two months. Maybe there's more to it than that, but I'd probably rather use that same money on 2-3 therapy sessions. That's just me though, I'm sure some people find things like that helpful.
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Old 29th October 2020, 13:14
Tonkin Tonkin is offline
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Default Re: The Happiness Trap 8-Week Online Program - ACT Acceptance and Commitment Therapy

Thanks. I'm not reading the book for happiness per se but because it seemed to be his most popular ACT book, but he does seem to have written quite a few.

Do you use the techniques when you're anxious, like when you're out side the post office? Or does it help because you use the techniques at other times, and this makes you feel less anxious in general?

One of my many social problems is I will be talking to someone, then I'll start having negative thoughts about what I'm saying or what they might be thinking of me etc, which isn't good for the conversation!

In the book, so far, he's saying to accept those thoughts but change them to "I'm having thoughts that the other person thinks I'm boring" rather than just thinking "The other person thinks I'm boring".

That creates distance from the thoughts as you are observing them, rather than just accepting them, or something?

I'm not sure if I could do that in the moment. I could do it before, at home, like if I was going to a party, I could do the whole "I'm having thoughts that everyone at the party will think I'm boring" thing.

But once at the party, its more of a feeling that I'm failing at the party. I don't think I'd have the ability to edit my thoughts during the party or a conversation.

But maybe doing the thought work at home on my own, will some how affect my thoughts in a live situation?

Does your therapist just do ACT or do they do other stuff too?

I need to find a therapist I think. I'd like to give it a go but can't decide who to go with or what to look for!
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  #4  
Old 29th October 2020, 20:25
Tonkin Tonkin is offline
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Default Re: The Happiness Trap 8-Week Online Program - ACT Acceptance and Commitment Therapy

Thanks, that's good to know!
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  #5  
Old 29th October 2020, 23:36
genovese genovese is offline
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Default Re: The Happiness Trap 8-Week Online Program - ACT Acceptance and Commitment Therapy

Read the book a while ago, definitely a worthwhile read (thanks Dougella).

I'd say finish the book first and read all the free stuff online about it before doing the course. I'd also echo that some sessions with an ACT therapist would be more beneficial.

There's stuff like this
https://www.udemy.com/course/act-therapy/

There's normally udemy codes knocking around online to make it free.
No idea what it's like, it could be great or just be a re-hash of the book!

I think Ajax was an actual ACT therapist
Definite shame he doesn't post anymore, he had tremendous advice.
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Old 30th October 2020, 00:34
Dougella Dougella is offline
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Default Re: The Happiness Trap 8-Week Online Program - ACT Acceptance and Commitment Therapy

^ I think I've literally recommended it to everyone now but it is good.
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Old 30th October 2020, 06:26
gregarious_introvert gregarious_introvert is offline
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Default Re: The Happiness Trap 8-Week Online Program - ACT Acceptance and Commitment Therapy

^^ Ajax Amsterdam was an ACT therapist (and PCT too, I think) and an inspiration to me, as he changed his life in his late 40s / early 50s (he's only a year younger than I); I miss him and the wisdom he brought here.

I've never tried ACT myself, but reading this thread has made me realise that I've used some techniques (probably because of AA's posts) and I can say that, over time, my thought processes have changed from "I..." to "I think that I..." to not even being aware (most of the time) of the anxiety. As Jen says, avoidance is only delaying (and prolonguing) anxiety, so whatever helps to overcome avoidance is a positive step. I also think that ACT is less challenging than CBT for some of us (particularly we autists) who struggle with the idea that our thoughts are "wrong" or need to be changed, rather than accepted and then overcome.

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  #8  
Old 30th October 2020, 11:38
roro_1990 roro_1990 is offline
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Default Re: The Happiness Trap 8-Week Online Program - ACT Acceptance and Commitment Therapy

The problem I've found personally with ACT is that my thoughts are so relentlessly negative it's difficult to bring any acceptance to them. The Happiness Trap was a truly excellent book in how it conveyed that it's entirely normal to have some negative thoughts and not to be happy all the time.

My personal struggle is that almost every waking thought is a negative one, whether about myself or the world, such that accepting those thoughts is very difficult. I think it can definitely work for a lot of people though. I guess the question I keep trying to figure out about myself is, "why is it that every single thought that enters into my mind a negative, self-defeating, or angry thought regardless of the situation?"
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Old 30th October 2020, 12:04
Dougella Dougella is offline
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Default Re: The Happiness Trap 8-Week Online Program - ACT Acceptance and Commitment Therapy

^ It's not necessarily a question of accepting those thoughts, because obviously like you say it can be relentless, but more like noticing that you're having them and seeing them as something your brain is thinking but that they are not facts. If that makes sense.
As for working out why you are having such relentless negative thoughts that's another question!
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  #10  
Old 30th October 2020, 12:09
roro_1990 roro_1990 is offline
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Default Re: The Happiness Trap 8-Week Online Program - ACT Acceptance and Commitment Therapy

^ Part of me thinks giving antidepressants a fair trial may well reduce the negative content of my thoughts. I've always felt like I should be able to beat my mental difficulties through non-medical methods but it's time for some humility because whatever I'm doing hasn't worked now for 30 years.
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Old 30th October 2020, 12:25
Dougella Dougella is offline
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Default Re: The Happiness Trap 8-Week Online Program - ACT Acceptance and Commitment Therapy

^ They do help for some people, there's no harm in giving them a try. I've been on antidepressants for quite a long time and they can help to quiet some of the negative thinking.
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Old 30th October 2020, 13:03
Jen. Jen. is offline
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Default Re: The Happiness Trap 8-Week Online Program - ACT Acceptance and Commitment Therapy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonkin
Do you use the techniques when you're anxious, like when you're out side the post office? Or does it help because you use the techniques at other times, and this makes you feel less anxious in general?
It's more like it makes specific anxiety-inducing situations less stressful due to it allowing me to become familiar with them, rather than feeling less anxious in general. I usually use the techniques to get me to start my journey towards the specific thing I'd likely want to avoid and then again to enter the situation (so in that example, before I leave the house, while approaching the post office and then while in the queue). "I'm experiencing the feeling of anxiety about going inside because I'm having thoughts that the person behind the counter is going to negatively judge me for something I inevitably do wrong." Something like that, I suppose.

It's not so much helpful in navigating difficult situations, which I think can only get easier through repetition/practise - and the only way you can do that is by learning how not to avoid whatever it is that makes you anxious. I'm confident in my ability to navigate things like post office transactions once I'm stood in front of the worker, as in I probably come across as being "normal" during the conversation and should have no reason to believe that the other person will think negatively of me, so once I've actually got myself in there the anxiety is pretty low since my thoughts during and afterwards are about how the situation wasn't as bad as my instincts were telling me it could be.

I think it's generally useful to experience your thoughts and feelings externally rather than simply reacting to them as instincts. It's very easy to avoid something if you know that doing the thing will make you feel bad, but it's easier to do something if you try to keep in mind that you're a biological machine who is feeling the effects of anxiety because your brain chemistry and experiences have led you to perceive a certain situation as a threat. Anxiety is a natural response to threats since when life was harder it would have helped to keep you alive, but if your brain is perceiving things as threats when they're actually very safe then it's a problem. So, one thought might be, "The anxiety I'm feeling about approaching a group of strangers would have made me safer in the distant past when we lived in tribes since there was a chance they might have robbed, raped or murdered me, but this group of strangers I'm approaching right now are actually just children in an ice skating lesson who pose no threat to me."

It might feel weird to think of yourself going to the post office to return an Amazon package as you being a bag of blood and bones that's required to be physically in one place to carry out a task in order to slightly improve its quality of life by the tiniest amount, but I think viewing it as such can put things into perspective and make it far easier to cope. Lots of things become easier to do once you look at them for what they are and try to keep in mind that nothing in the universe matters. I guess at its core ACT is basically just using that viewpoint to get things done. Accepting that you're going to feel anxious but that it's just your brain processing the situation, instead of believing that you won't ever be able to do something until you stop feeling anxious about it (which might never happen).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonkin
One of my many social problems is I will be talking to someone, then I'll start having negative thoughts about what I'm saying or what they might be thinking of me etc, which isn't good for the conversation!

In the book, so far, he's saying to accept those thoughts but change them to "I'm having thoughts that the other person thinks I'm boring" rather than just thinking "The other person thinks I'm boring".

That creates distance from the thoughts as you are observing them, rather than just accepting them, or something?

I'm not sure if I could do that in the moment. I could do it before, at home, like if I was going to a party, I could do the whole "I'm having thoughts that everyone at the party will think I'm boring" thing.

But once at the party, its more of a feeling that I'm failing at the party. I don't think I'd have the ability to edit my thoughts during the party or a conversation.

But maybe doing the thought work at home on my own, will some how affect my thoughts in a live situation?
It's definitely difficult to use it "in the moment" and it's mostly been helpful with me as motivation to do something that I don't want to do but know would probably be beneficial in some way (for enjoyment, gaining experience, making life easier, improving social life, whatever). E.g. I could use that technique to get me to go to a party when otherwise I might have agreed to go and then cancelled as it got near due to anxiety about going, but once there it's not really any use in terms of feeling less anxious when, say, stood in a group of five people I've never met before trying to make small talk. Although it can be useful in making me go up to those people if I find myself stood alone or clinging to a couple of people I already know and have decided it would be better for me to do something like that as a challenge. I prefer throwing myself into an anxiety-inducing situation and then worrying about the anxiety once I'm in that situation, and ACT has helped with the throwing myself into it part.

When talking to someone in a situation like that you're usually too busy thinking about what they're saying and what you're going to say back, and trying to focus on distancing yourself from your thoughts will probably make it look like you aren't paying attention and so might actually make them think you're weird, boring, annoying or aloof. Instead of trying to think "I'm having thoughts that the other person thinks I'm boring" while speaking to someone you can change it to "I'm having thoughts that this person thought I was boring" after you've finished speaking to them. I've found it can make the cringing from perceived social blunders less extreme, and that most of my cringing is done about things from years ago rather than from in the last year. It's definitely become easier to let go of things that would have likely become obsessive thoughts anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonkin
Does your therapist just do ACT or do they do other stuff too?
She does PCT primarily and offers CBT to others.

I've just realised this reply is very long and probably doesn't make much sense. I only slept for three hours last night and am prone to ramble anyway, so sorry about that!
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  #13  
Old 2nd November 2020, 12:11
Tonkin Tonkin is offline
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Default Re: The Happiness Trap 8-Week Online Program - ACT Acceptance and Commitment Therapy

Quote:
Originally Posted by roro_1990
^ Part of me thinks giving antidepressants a fair trial may well reduce the negative content of my thoughts. I've always felt like I should be able to beat my mental difficulties through non-medical methods but it's time for some humility because whatever I'm doing hasn't worked now for 30 years.
I feel a bit like that too.

Like I'm not that bad, so why take them, but on the other hand, could life be so much better than this?

Also feeling like I should be able to beat it myself, rather than being weak or cheating by taking meds.

Plus what about the sides?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dougella
^ They do help for some people, there's no harm in giving them a try. I've been on antidepressants for quite a long time and they can help to quiet some of the negative thinking.
What about the side effects and withdrawal if you want to come off?

Don't they change your brain forever in some situations?

Quote:
Originally Posted by gregarious_introvert
I can say that, over time, my thought processes have changed from "I..." to "I think that I..." to not even being aware (most of the time) of the anxiety.
That's good to know.

I feel like even in a few days of doing this, I'm nipping the unhelpful thoughts in the bud quite quickly.

I know the goal of ACT isn't to get rid of the thoughts, just accept them, but they do seem to be diminishing.

Early days, though, but best self help book I've read so far (not finished it yet though.
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Old 2nd November 2020, 12:22
Tonkin Tonkin is offline
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Default Re: The Happiness Trap 8-Week Online Program - ACT Acceptance and Commitment Therapy

Thanks Jen, that was really helpful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jen.
When talking to someone in a situation like that you're usually too busy thinking about what they're saying and what you're going to say back, and trying to focus on distancing yourself from your thoughts will probably make it look like you aren't paying attention and so might actually make them think you're weird, boring, annoying or aloof.
In those situations, I do actually have those negative thoughts while I'm talking to people.

As I'm speaking, I'll often have a thought of "quick, change the topic, or end the conversation, they're going to ask you about X soon and that won't be good!"

That kind of kills my social flow right there and then.

Or if the conversation stops, I think of something to say, then I think "don't say that, that's boring, try and think of something else" but often I can't.

X could be a whole range of things, depending on the person I'm talking to.

But as you say, I could work on those thoughts before and after the situation, to try and realize they aren't helpful.
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Old 2nd November 2020, 14:26
roro_1990 roro_1990 is offline
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Default Re: The Happiness Trap 8-Week Online Program - ACT Acceptance and Commitment Therapy

Quote:
Like I'm not that bad, so why take them, but on the other hand, could life be so much better than this?
Yeah, I feel exactly this way. To me, taking antidepressants seems justified when you can't get out of bed, you're crying all the time, and you don't feel like doing anything. But I always come up with a reason to justify not taking them because I don't experience those levels of despair.

The content of my thoughts seems pathologically negative, though: melancholic, neurotic, and self-defeating. I also experience a lot of negative emotions like anger, shame, jealousy, anxiety, and irritability. Part of me thinks antidepressants can help. To me, there is no form of psychological intervention, whether CBT or ACT, that can do an effective job of either changing that negativity or getting me to accept it.

The deterrent to taking meds is that I am largely functional in terms of the basics. I have a good sleep schedule, I eat normal amounts of food, I exercise, and I have a bit of work to keep me going.

I probably meet the criteria for a persistent depressive disorder rather than a full-blown depression. My outbursts of anger, mostly confined to pointless online tirades that are entirely out of proportion to the situation, can be explained by a recent diagnosis of something called IED. Whether meds are suitable for my persistent but less debilitating type of depression I'm not entirely sure.
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Old 2nd November 2020, 14:39
Dougella Dougella is offline
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Default Re: The Happiness Trap 8-Week Online Program - ACT Acceptance and Commitment Therapy

^ Have you ever examined where those negative thought are coming from or what they might have been influenced by? Like what kind of attitudes did you hear growing up etc?
Part of the first step of ACT is just noticing your thoughts, you don't have to change them or accept them but just notice them as thoughts, not facts.


On the question of meds it really is a personal thing to you, it matters more whether your depression is hindering you in life rather than if you specifically can't get out of bed etc. Depression does take the form of a lot of anger for some people. I remember when I was in a bad place I was very cynical and easily agitated and hostile.
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Old 2nd November 2020, 14:52
roro_1990 roro_1990 is offline
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Default Re: The Happiness Trap 8-Week Online Program - ACT Acceptance and Commitment Therapy

^ Yeah, I grew up in a negative environment which certainly didn't help. I have parents who bickered a lot and generally didn't seem to love each other (still the case and I still live with them!), and an overbearing grandmother who was always trying to control my mother (I loved my nan but she had a tendency to be very negative). My mum and dad suffer from their own depression/anxiety issues too.

So it seems my thoughts have been shaped by a bad melting pot of genetic and environmental factors. I'm not sure what I do with that information though.
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Old 3rd November 2020, 10:05
Tonkin Tonkin is offline
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Default Re: The Happiness Trap 8-Week Online Program - ACT Acceptance and Commitment Therapy

Quote:
Originally Posted by roro_1990
Whether meds are suitable for my persistent but less debilitating type of depression I'm not entirely sure.
Maybe go and see a professional (GP etc) and see what they think about you taking them?

There are many different types and you take them in a range of doses.

They might say "take this one at a low dose and it will take the edge off the negative thoughts etc" or they might say, "no, you're fine".

Although I should take my own advice here but I am wary that the doc will just do a quick Google, say "take this buddy", then I will be worried if they know what they're talking about or are just following a script to get the 10 min appointment over on schedule!

The GP system isn't exactly renowned for its diagnosis abilities.
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Old 3rd November 2020, 14:49
Jen. Jen. is offline
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Default Re: The Happiness Trap 8-Week Online Program - ACT Acceptance and Commitment Therapy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonkin
Although I should take my own advice here but I am wary that the doc will just do a quick Google, say "take this buddy", then I will be worried if they know what they're talking about or are just following a script to get the 10 min appointment over on schedule!
I haven't been on antidepressants for a few years now, but I remember the first time I was given them as a teenager my experience was basically like this. At the time I booked a double appointment (which was 40 minutes back then!) since the GP's website suggested to do that for initial mental health appointments, but I was probably in there for less than 10 minutes. It was mainly me reading through a list of mood-related questions on a sheet on paper and ticking them. I guess it helps to give the doctor some sense of how bad things are. He just looked through it and said "Oh", then wrote me a prescription without really explaining anything about what I was going to be taking. It felt very quick, then involved going back every so often to have the dosage increased or to try a different type... most of the time it was a quick "You don't feel any different? Let's try doubling it and I'll see you in six weeks to see how you're getting on." I know antidepressants are pretty much always trial and error and that it can take a long time to find what works for someone, but it always surprised me just how willing doctors are to hand them out and with no discussion of side effects.
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Old 4th November 2020, 08:18
Tonkin Tonkin is offline
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Default Re: The Happiness Trap 8-Week Online Program - ACT Acceptance and Commitment Therapy

That sounds terrible and just how I'd imagine it happening!

Can't believe they didn't discus side effects though. Did they speak at all about what to expect, good or bad?
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Old 4th November 2020, 14:19
Jen. Jen. is offline
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Default Re: The Happiness Trap 8-Week Online Program - ACT Acceptance and Commitment Therapy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonkin
That sounds terrible and just how I'd imagine it happening!

Can't believe they didn't discus side effects though. Did they speak at all about what to expect, good or bad?
The only time that would be discussed was after I'd bring something up, and often then it would result in being told that things might get worse before they get better. I suppose because they can affect different people in completely different ways there's no way of knowing what might happen until you start taking them. Luckily there was nothing too bad with me (although coming off a couple of them was horrendous), but in one case when I was having a lot of trouble sleeping on one I was quickly offered something else to take in addition to help with that, and it didn't feel right to me to start chasing side effects with more medicine that might also have side effects and so on. It's just about finding a balance, isn't it... e.g. if someone is unable to even get out of bed without being on antidepressants then a few unpleasant side effects might still make it worth it for them and allow a better quality of life overall, or sometimes dealing with frequent low moods and occasional suicidal ideation might be preferable to being unable to sleep and having permanent nausea.
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Old 5th November 2020, 09:51
Tonkin Tonkin is offline
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Default Re: The Happiness Trap 8-Week Online Program - ACT Acceptance and Commitment Therapy

Yeah, its a tough one for sure.

I guess if they worked and had no side effects everyone would be on them!
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Old 5th November 2020, 22:14
Utopia Utopia is offline
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Default Re: The Happiness Trap 8-Week Online Program - ACT Acceptance and Commitment Therapy

Tbh if the side effects are worse than the initial symptoms, then it's a sign your shouldn't be taking them in the first place. Only anti-depressants which I personally felt unbearable side effects was Venlafaxine, Quitiapine (an anti-psychotic often also used in depression) and Mirtazepine has weird side effects, but it's worth it if they calm me down and get me to sleep. I'm on Mirtazepine/Duloxetine and it's just quite calming overall - they do help, but I still have problems. I'm very unhappy, but not depressed or suicidal anymore, things can be very complex; there isn't just one fix for all circumstances, person and mental health condition.
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Old 6th November 2020, 08:59
Tonkin Tonkin is offline
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Default Re: The Happiness Trap 8-Week Online Program - ACT Acceptance and Commitment Therapy

Thanks, that's good to know.
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