Unhelpful negativity in some threads?

[lonelyafternoon]

Hi,

This is my first post here and I don't generally post on forums, so I'm just going to apologise in advance for no doubt breaking all kinds of "newbie" etiquette with this post.

Firstly, I think the forum's great, and it's wonderful to see the amount of support and time people are giving to help each other with SA. I've found a lot to be encouraged by and a lot of useful advice and empathetic stories and shared experiences.

But, I want to know if anyone else agrees with me on this. There are certain posts, that are extremely unhelpful, especially to new users. So that I'm not just talking vaguely in generalisations, I give you the "Virgin School" thread as an example:

http://www.social-anxiety-community....ad.php?t=32809

From the point of view of a new user to the forum, it was distressing and unhelpful to read such staggering generalisations, oversimplifications and depressing distortions of reality, from people who are clearly very intelligent. Because it's so articulately and eloquently written at times, it's easy to get caught up in the logic of depression, and this is very unhelpful to new users, and will only go towards reinforcing negative self image and negative distortions of the outside world. This thread (and the tendency is by no means confined to this thread) reinforces: all-or-nothing thinking, generalisation, distortion, and negative group outsider identity reinforcement (we are ALL losers in EVERY area of life who will ALWAYS fail and are ALWAYS persecuted by EVERYONE in society).

Someone who has come to the forum looking for help and support would not be much helped by such negative and warped generalisations, so eloquently intelligent in its own way, and could very easily be influenced by it. I suffered from SA myself for years, and it's only from my own psychology training and experience of CBT that I was able to recognise the flawed logic of depression so readily. A bit younger and a bit more troubled, and I could've been left feeling really lousy.

We all know that CBT variants and realistic thought patterns are the best types of currently available, straightforward treatments for SA. If we're going to help each other, does anyone agree that it would be very helpful for us to start countering this warped logic with a more concerted effort to bring it back to reality?

The process of challenging these overgeneralised, destructive logics with more realistic and balanced evaluations of ourselves and of others could be really helpful. As it stands there are some pretty unpleasant, and potentially harmful, posts out there in my opinion guys.
Tell me if I'm wrong, and apologies again for my inevitable numerous violations of netiquette. I'm just not a forum kind of guy usually.

Best wishes all.
LA.

[Amber Fyre]

I'm always nervous about replying to threads such as these in case they're created by a current poster trying to wind people up... but I'll take a risk and reply anyway! Just because I'm brave like that

Oh certainly, grouping every person who is socially anxious into one lump and saying we are all exactly the same and there is no hope for any of us is extremely unhelpful and potentially dangerous. We need hope, and such threads could potentially destroy that. People do improve, SA can be beaten, there is hope. People need to know that.

However, I can understand how people who feel helpless and hopeless would need an outlet and this site can be useful for that. Sometimes if you're in the pit of despair you need to just 'let it all out' and reach out. It's not great to presume all others SAers are exactly the same though, it's better to talk about your individual case otherwise, as you said, it may affect new members and make them think their case is hopeless.

I don't know if there is an answer to this though, as censoring such threads would be potentially dangerous too! So I guess we should just hope that positive threads which give people hope will balance out the negative ones.

[lonelyafternoon]

Well, thanks for taking that risk amberfirez. Yeah I'm not winding people up, and maybe what I said sounds really basic/pointless. So much the worse for me I guess.

But I wasn't suggesting censorship. I was saying maybe it was worth making more of a concerted effort to make sure that a more balanced view was given alongside the negative rants. Because actually, all there is, is loads of people replying saying "this is 100% true", and reinforcing it all, and no balance or contrast whatsoever. The positive and negative threads exist in separate worlds.

I agree with all the points you make. I just think the idea of spreading the positive word needs to be extended to those negative threads, and as someone who's totally new to this forum (and to forum culture generally - clearly), I thought it was worth giving the point of view of a newbie with psych experience, as regular posters might be more acclimatised and take for granted what isn't so obvious, and is more shocking, to someone newly seeking help.

The process of challenging these overgeneralised, destructive logics with more realistic and balanced evaluations of ourselves and of others could be really helpful. As it stands there are some pretty unpleasant, and potentially harmful, posts out there in my opinion guys.

I agree! Good thread

[Stepford]

Hi lonelyafternoon,

I agree but what can you do? This is an open forum where people have the right to write what they like (within reason), so it seems to me no amount of posting that there's a lot of negativity around here will change that. I'm not always in a positive mood and naturally that shows in some posts I make, that is how it is, that is probably how it is for everyone.

[mike]

I think the threads are a reflection of what SAUK users are going through in there lives. I think there will always be a large amount of negative posts, SA brings a lot of negativity to a persons life. I think it is great that people can come and freely express how they feel, and I'm sure it benifits them.

[CheshireChaz]

join
S.A.P.A.N.T
its a social group on here

[threadbare]

in the medical model of social anxiety, the 'condition' is seen as being characterised and perpetuated by extreme negative and black and white thinking (amongst other things). this being the model you seem to recognise, lonelyafternoon - how can you realistically expect the posts here not to reflect exactly this kind of thinking?
posters here need to express these thoughts without being judged. this not only allows them to give expression to what are otherwise very isolating and lonely experiences, but also creates opportunities for others who can identify with these experiences to know that they are not alone. that is an important and fundamental function of the forum IMO.

[Stepford]

Originally Posted by threadbare

in the medical model of social anxiety, the 'condition' is seen as being characterised and perpetuated by extreme negative and black and white thinking (amongst other things). this being the model you seem to recognise, lonelyafternoon - how can you realistically expect the posts here not to reflect exactly this kind of thinking?
posters here need to express these thoughts without being judged. this not only allows them to give expression to what are otherwise very isolating and lonely experiences, but also creates opportunities for others who can identify with these experiences to know that they are not alone. that is an important and fundamental function of the forum IMO.

Good post threadbare.

[CheshireChaz]

Originally Posted by pyramidic

I agree! Good thread

me too !

[threadbare]

Originally Posted by HaveANiceDay

It has to be OK to give your own positive opinions and ideas if somebody's asking for opinions and ideas, which people do a lot here.

i agree HAND.

Originally Posted by HaveANiceDay

When somebody's just describing their own negative emotional state, without asking for advice, trying to "fix" people is much dodgier (even though I do that sometimes ).

i sometimes do that too

but just say if someone is repeatedly beating themselves up and giving themselves an incredibly hard time, then it can be very hard not to want to pipe up and offer an alternative perspective. that's a bit different from making people who want to vent about their personal experiences feel unwelcome from doing so because they might be harming others.

(oh, and thanks Stepford). (and abc!).

[Stepford]

Originally Posted by CheshireChaz

me too !

Yes but how are you (and others) actually going to make people post what you think is positive? It begs the question what exactly is positive and what is negative?

[Stepford]

For those feeling down with all the negativity around here.

[threadbare]

Originally Posted by Stepford

For those feeling down with all the negativity around here.

hehe! works for me.

[Stepford]

Originally Posted by Befals

Is that rabbit in a pan?!

Yes, soon to be boiled. There's me being negative...

[Stepford]

Originally Posted by Befals

Sorry, I'm just being a bit silly

me 2

[Pal]

Depends what you mean by "overgeneralisations", i agree with the unneseccery negativity, it's annoying at times.

[gingercat]

There was a lot I would have liked to say on that "Virgin School" thread in particular... being someone who used to feel like that myself but got proved totally wrong. I just didn't feel able to argue against a number of people who are so convinced they're right and probably better at debating than me. Also I can still be brought down by reading stuff like that so I tend to avoid it mostly... I'm better than I was but not that much better. There might be others here who feel the same. Which is a shame really because it could leave people with the impression that things are much more hopeless than they actually are. Maybe I should be braver and argue next time...

[stripeymouse]

Originally Posted by Stepford

For those feeling down with all the negativity around here.

oh thank you stepford! that is the cutest bunny ever!

[stripeymouse]

i agree with these concerns, but i'm beginning to see everyone on here is at a different stage in their view of things/the way they cope with their SA and sometimes this involves indulging in negativity as a sort of, well, if i'm gonna feel it i'm gonna really feel it and own it. I've been known to do this myself. One of the problems i have is steering myself to the stuff i find positive and ignoring that which angers and upsets me - trying to leave my masochism aside!!

I think there is both plenty of negativity and positivity on here and that only good things can come out of the space to debate these issues

(this new insight comes from getting upset myself at what i saw as a negative thread the other day! Man, what can we expect when we're all dealing with such issues in our own ways?? lol)

[Ben]

Freedom of speech is one thing, but some of the negativity here is akin to shouting "fire in a crowded theatre". You have a right to express yourself, but in doing so you must measure the effect your words will have on others. It is irresponsible and wrong to make blanket statements about SA sufferers (either explicitly or implicitly) even in an uncharacteristic 'fit' of self examination/recrimination.

I am all for people saying they had a shit day or otherwise being in need of community support, but for me, thats a right that comes with a responsibility. Words matter, sentiments matter...phrase your request for help or consolation in a way that can not potentially harm other people. It takes a bit of forethought and appreciation for others to do so, but it is the responsible thing to do imo.

[lonelyafternoon]

Lol, clearly I touched on an issue that's already had some airtime, and thanks for the group invite.
You know, I think you should've responded to the thread gingercat, and you didn't need to think of it as arguing. Perhaps what I called negativity (which is, I agree, totally to be expected and is understandable, and is not something I wished to stand in judgement of, much less advocate censorship of) I should have referred to as "hostility", and I think this might be what Ben means too (sorry if I'm misrepresenting). Because while negativity is a part of everyday life, and is nothing more than a value-label judgement for feelings that are a natural part of our evolution, as we all know anxiety is too, hostility is something that we do have a choice over. Admitting fear of being a "loser" for example is quite different from branding vast numbers of people "losers".
Above all else, what was actually of concern to me was the kind of response these feelings were getting. If someone vents a bit of hostility, I think we would've hoped to see those supportive and balanced voices which are clearly present in abundance, pipe up and kindly offer a more neutral and calmer view of things. This could be quite therapeutic for all involved. But because of the matter of fact, confrontational style of writing, many might be scared of taking the step to offering a different point of view, for fear of being shouted down by all those who are willing to reinforce the original rant with "this is 100% true". I think this is how gingercat understandably felt. We are SA after all, who wants to be ridiculed by a group of smart arses who 'know' the way it 'really' is?
If some people here are willing, and I wholly understand that it's easy for me to sit here and say this so I include myself in this, I just think it's a call to say how about calmly offering a more CBT, or value neutral, or balanced, or whatever you want to call it, view of things, so that those who read hostile threads don't end up thinking all their worst fears have been confirmed and verified.

[psychocandy]

Hi, I started that thread 'Virgin School'. It seems that it has upset some people which wasn't my intention, so I'm sorry
about that but I was only writing what was on my mind at the time.

Originally Posted by lonelyafternoon

Because it's so articulately and eloquently written at times, it's easy to get caught up in the logic of depression, and
this is very unhelpful to new users, and will only go towards reinforcing negative self image and negative distortions of the
outside world.

I'm not sure if you were referring to my writing here or someone elses but thanks if you meant me.

Originally Posted by Ben

Freedom of speech is one thing, but some of the negativity here is akin to shouting "fire in a crowded theatre". You have a
right to express yourself, but in doing so you must measure the effect your words will have on others.

True but since I feel like no one ever pays attention to what I write, I never feel any need to censor myself. Perhaps other
posters here feel the same. If someone had read what I had written and it made them worse, then I would feel bad but how
could I know that?

Originally Posted by threadbare

in the medical model of social anxiety, the 'condition' is seen as being characterised and perpetuated by extreme negative
and black and white thinking (amongst other things). this being the model you seem to recognise, lonelyafternoon - how can
you realistically expect the posts here not to reflect exactly this kind of thinking?
posters here need to express these thoughts without being judged. this not only allows them to give expression to what are
otherwise very isolating and lonely experiences, but also creates opportunities for others who can identify with these
experiences to know that they are not alone. that is an important and fundamental function of the forum IMO.

Yes I agree with this. When people write posts on here about feelings or experiences that I have never felt it makes me feel
worse because it makes me more of an outsider. There are probably a lot of people reading these boards who can't even connect
with what is talked about on here because their own experiences are even more miserable. That only leaves these individuals
more distraught.

Originally Posted by stripeymouse

i agree with these concerns, but i'm beginning to see everyone on here is at a different stage in their view of things/the
way they cope with their SA and sometimes this involves indulging in negativity as a sort of, well, if i'm gonna feel it i'm
gonna really feel it and own it.

I don't own negativity, it is me. It's what I've felt for a long time and to me it is not even negativity I don't even
evaluate it like that now. I just accept it.

I'm sorry if I have disturbed some other posters here but I can only express what I feel. The point about SA is that it traps
us with fear. One way to combat that is through therapy and CBT, to change our thinking and perspective on life. To do that
you have to build a positive outlook so that you can become a success in the world but what if you can't? I only write on
these boards because I am not a success in the outside world and I doubt I ever will be.

To the original poster of this thread I would say this, you are right about the negativity but it is the fear that you have
inside yourself that worries you the most. Confidence can be crushed like a piece of paper in the hand and living without
confidence is no life at all but it is my life. If I can't post here then where do I go?

[Pal]

There's nowt wrong with venting how you feel, the trouble is that it can often end up bringing other people down too. Hense i think why this thread was started up.

[lonelyafternoon]

Ok I feel a little as if I'm going in circles here, but I just want to clarify in light of what Pal says there that the problem should not be people's right to "vent" to opine, to speak their heart, to express their feelings. I think everyone agrees with the right to do that.
The problem is the lack of balance. Instead of being countered by helpful, calming words, people pile in to reinforce a generalised and negative world view.

A few words to psychocandy:
I'm sorry if you interpreted my post as an attack on you, as it wasn't at all. Nor was it an attempt to cast doubt on your right to express an opinion, however negative you might be feeling. My greatest concern for others reading your post, was the same concern I have for YOU. Which is, that instead of offering help to you, and offering help to others, the other posters validated and confirmed your feelings. I wish for you psychocandy, as well as for other readers, that someone could've offered you some more balanced ways of looking at things - not patronising you with positive thinking rubbish, but a way of looking at the shades of grey between the extremes.
Your post was only used as an example, and wasn't meant to be a scapegoat. You should certainly not feel that I was in any way trying to diminish your welcomeness to post, or the value of your contribution. I'm sorry to hear you feel negative all the time and that CBT and therapy haven't worked for you. But CBT is an ongoing process, and if when you made these posts, in a place you feel comfortable, someone had been around to say hey, there's another side to this, have you thought about it, that would be an ongoing part of that help for you. Having people confirm your negative feelings doesn't help YOU, and that was my point, not that you had no right to post it. It doesn't help other people reading it either.
But the way to help people is not the fluffy bunny approach - of course it's not. It's about hearing the negative feelings we all have, and then supporting each other by providing the balanced alternative viewpoint.

If anyone else makes out the purpose of this thread is censorship, or stopping people from posting negative feelings, I will bang my head against a wall privately, but won't post on it again. I think I've had my say, thanks all for your thoughts.

[Arfed]

Originally Posted by threadbare

i sometimes do that too

but just say if someone is repeatedly beating themselves up and giving themselves an incredibly hard time, then it can be very hard not to want to pipe up and offer an alternative perspective. that's a bit different from making people who want to vent about their personal experiences feel unwelcome from doing so because they might be harming others.

Might it not be better to have a part of the forum specifically for these posts? (i.e. a place primarily for venting, without requesting advice)
That way, people who go in to that part of the forum will know what to expect from the forum title, and this part of the forum may become more positive and helpful? Plus, there may be less people avoiding potentially-negative threads, which may lead to more people giving helpful posts.

It's been suggested by others before, but I feel it's worth bringing up again.

[threadbare]

lonelyafternoon, you have singled out one thread which you saw as being potentially damaging - whilst seemingly failing to realise that there are hundreds and hundreds of posts here which are examples of exactly the kind of support you are advocating.
if you care about the forum, would be great if you stuck around, kept an open mind, got a bit more of a feel for the place and then demonstrated with your own posts the kind of response you think would be most useful and appropriate (as cbtf already suggested earlier). you sound like you'd maybe have a lot of insights to contribute.
i don't know that broadly criticising the forum on the basis of one thread is going to prove very influential or persuasive in itself however.

Originally Posted by Arfed

Might it not be better to have a part of the forum specifically for these posts? (i.e. a place primarily for venting, without requesting advice)
That way, people who go in to that part of the forum will know what to expect from the forum title, and this part of the forum may become more positive and helpful? Plus, there may be less people avoiding potentially-negative threads, which may lead to more people giving helpful posts.

It's been suggested by others before, but I feel it's worth bringing up again.

certainly isn't something i'd have any objections to - if enough people thought that'd be helpful for them.

[Deepguy]

Originally Posted by threadbare

lonelyafternoon, you have singled out one thread which you saw as being potentially damaging - whilst seemingly failing to realise that there are hundreds and hundreds of posts here which are examples of exactly the kind of support you are advocating.
if you care about the forum, would be great if you stuck around, kept an open mind, got a bit more of a feel for the place and then demonstrated with your own posts the kind of response you think would be most useful and appropriate (as cbtf already suggested earlier). you sound like you'd maybe have a lot of insights to contribute.
i don't know that broadly criticising the forum on the basis of one thread is going to prove very influential or persuasive in itself however.

Agreed. Although I do agree that the negativity around here is sometimes excessive and not helpful, it IS part of having social anxiety, and if we didn't have that then most of us wouldn't be here.

I don't think it's right for you, lonelyafternoon, to pop up and in your very first posts give us a diagnosis of what's wrong with the forum - then sort of say you are going to quietly despair of it all by yourself and disappear again.

You also make an assumption that everyone knows what CBT is and is some way along in that process - an assumption which is very likely to be incorrect. And another assumption seems to be that CBT is a cure-all for social anxiety - it's helpful in my experience, but quick fix it is not.

Sometimes I get sick of the negative stuff and have to take a break because it's dragging me down. I try and offer positive insights and advice when I can - who knows whether any of it is useful or not, but it's worth a try. But there's other times, like how I'm feeling at the moment, when I am feeling down and depressed and want to vent my negative emotions. I tend not to here though, because I don't want to drag other people down, but I do understand the need to do that. What I don't like is the superior attitude some people have on this forum, that they know what is best for others - that happens when people are trying to 'help' others and are sighing in exasperation because they won't see what is supposedly so simple. It also happens when people are so negative that they rubbish any suggestion that reality is not quite so bleak. Unfortunately lonlelyafternoon your posts smack a little of the former. I'm sure you could make a valuable contribution if you stick around though, but at the same time accept that negative comments are and always will be part of what happens here.

[Mel1]

Well said Deepguy, "I can't help it if I feel S**t (and I have'nt got CBT!)- I'm sure we would all like to feel chipper, but sadly negativity IS part of the picture!

[Mel1]

Originally Posted by Deepguy

Agreed. Although I do agree that the negativity around here is sometimes excessive and not helpful, it IS part of having social anxiety, and if we didn't have that then most of us wouldn't be here.

I don't think it's right for you, lonelyafternoon, to pop up and in your very first posts give us a diagnosis of what's wrong with the forum - then sort of say you are going to quietly despair of it all by yourself and disappear again.

You also make an assumption that everyone knows what CBT is and is some way along in that process - an assumption which is very likely to be incorrect. And another assumption seems to be that CBT is a cure-all for social anxiety - it's helpful in my experience, but quick fix it is not.

Sometimes I get sick of the negative stuff and have to take a break because it's dragging me down. I try and offer positive insights and advice when I can - who knows whether any of it is useful or not, but it's worth a try. But there's other times, like how I'm feeling at the moment, when I am feeling down and depressed and want to vent my negative emotions. I tend not to here though, because I don't want to drag other people down, but I do understand the need to do that. What I don't like is the superior attitude some people have on this forum, that they know what is best for others - that happens when people are trying to 'help' others and are sighing in exasperation because they won't see what is supposedly so simple. It also happens when people are so negative that they rubbish any suggestion that reality is not quite so bleak. Unfortunately lonlelyafternoon your posts smack a little of the former. I'm sure you could make a valuable contribution if you stick around though, but at the same time accept that negative comments are and always will be part of what happens here.

Well said Deepguy, "I can't help it if I feel S**t (and I have'nt got CBT!)- I'm sure we would all like to feel chipper, but sadly negativity IS part of the picture!