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  #61  
Old 28th February 2008, 15:42
Ben Ben is offline
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Default Re: The drugs don't work

Quote:
Originally Posted by winterdavid
you are not the only person on this site who has "beaten" SA.

i think you need to be a little bit more humble.

if NLP and kabbalah has worked for you, fair enough

but CBT and medication has worked for people here too.

you dont need to change your opinion on what is best.

just please accept that you are not the only person here who has succeeded, and that your way is NOT the only way.
David has been a little OTT (agressive and dismissive) in this thread (maybe he is feeling cornered?) I would like to echo what you have said winterDavid, plus I admire the calm way you have argued your point, and have not resorted in any way shape or form to labelling David 'messed up', 'weird' etc etc that has occured. DM has good intentions, but needs to be able to more realistically and humbly put his message across. imo his 'misbehaviour' on this thread is regrettable, but so are some others who have gave more than the measure they received.
  #62  
Old 28th February 2008, 15:45
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Default Re: The drugs don't work

Quote:
Originally Posted by david mckenna
i honestly beleive that im one of the few people who has the balls and drive to beat this thing. i do see myself as a one off type of person and an exception to the rule. i don't beleive that there are many people out there with the same courage and drive as me.

therefore i fee l like im in a better position than you all in regards to being able to advise people.

if u think im arrogant then great, gud 4 u, but i honestly beleive that im better equipted to beat this thing than anyone on this site and i intend to prove it
Your methods and tactics for tackling SA do not mean you are in a better position to advise, what works for you will not always work for others.
  #63  
Old 28th February 2008, 15:46
Innervision Innervision is offline
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Default Re: The drugs don't work

It's been interesting watching this thread develop.

I think it pays to remember that people experience mental and emotional distress differently. They also respond to different interventions differently too.

Meds are not a cure-all, and are not put forward as one anyway. To use a lame analogy - meds may act as something of a lifebelt helping to keep a person afloat. But it's up to the person to then put in the work and get themselves to the bank. Once on safe ground it's up to that person to learn how to swim (live their life more effectively) in order to cope better in future.

So meds do not do all the work, when prescribed responsibly to people receptive to them (and we don't know if we are receptive until we try them) they can facilitate and assist the person to make other efforts to beat their problems. They are not a cure, but can in many cases bring enough mental stability so that the person can then put in the effort and commitment needed to engage in therapy or whatever necessary to address the root cause of the problem.

So if meds did indeed act as a lifebelt in desperate times, the hope is that once on an even keel the person casts off the lifebelt and learns how to swim (live) without it.

Meds do not address the root of a problem, but they can potentially bring enough stability to a person so s/he can then address problematic issues in a more deeper way, via therapy or whatever else they feel responsive to personally.

It's important to realise there is a vast difference between taking meds and actually using meds. If a person pops a pill and expects it to change their life for them, they are taking meds. If they take meds and use any benefits they receive from them to push ahead and use the relative stability wisely by being pro-active in helping themselves, then they are using meds.

I believe meds have their place, and if responsibly prescribed and used, they can be beneficial.

Some people are not responsive to meds, and as Dr Miriam Stoppard pointed out the other day, this may be down to genetics. As reserach in the US has found that differing genetics in people can influence how receptive they are to SSRI meds. So this muddys the waters when it comes to measuring effectiveness.

Something else bothers me over the placebo effect. I mean us SA people and depressed people in general tend to be real sceptics, don't we? But the placebo effect works on the principle that if we believe something will work, then it will work. But how many of us actually believe meds will 'work' for us when we are first prescribed them? I know I was sceptical and pessimistic, so if anything, the placebo effect in my case should have been that they didn't work because I believed they wouldn't work. But in fact, I was pleasantly surprised when meds helped me.

NLP? Well it has helped literally thousands of people, so if it helps you, use it. There is a lot of snobbery in the 'therapy community' and some people are only interested in working with therapies that have science behind them, which is their right, of course. But there is more than one way to skin a cat, and people differ greatly in what they respond to. Science looks down it's nose at a lot of things that ordinary people find useful to them, so it's up to the individual, really. Use what you find useful, is my philosophy.

Before I sign off, can I just put my hand up as one person who has beaten severe and debilitating SA and depression through drive and determination. I'd like to believe it took some balls to do it too, considering it almost killed me trying. I did it using an holistic approach. By making use of anything and everything that offered even an ounce of assistance to me. I also needed the lifebelt that is medication in order to keep me afloat when I was drowning. From then on it was meds, but mostly sheer graft that made the difference. DM, you know I have a lot of time for you and your efforts, but there are many ways of confronting our demons. We have to find our individual way through trial and error as well as a lot of effort. As I say, there is more than one way to skin the cat that is SA. I think what upsets some people on the site is you appear to be suggesting your way is the only way. It's not though, you know. Lots of people here are doing well, and lots of us have done well and moved on from the site. Of those who have moved forward and progressed, I bet all of us will have a slightly different story as to how we did it. Some will have used meds, others not. My way has been very differnt to yours, but we've arrived roughly at the same place. As I say, there is more than one road to any destination. We just have to find one that suits us.
  #64  
Old 28th February 2008, 16:02
david mckenna david mckenna is offline
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Default Re: The drugs don't work

Quote:
Originally Posted by mi©o
David. Your approach to tackling your anxieties is something admirable. I'm even against the use of medications in most cases. But your attitude stinks. Maybe you should be working on that instead?

What you're posting here is not helpful to anyone. And that includes your absurd claims that depression can be cured in minutes.
im not gonna be working on my attitude trust me. if people dont like it then the problem lies with them.

im pretty sure that wot im posting here is helpful to lots of people. its helpful to the people who are new to dealing with SA and who haven't got a clue of were to turn. they may think meds is the only way but by reading my threads they will realize that maybe meds isn't the best way to go about this

wot can i say other than the only way u will know 4 sure if that was an ''absurd claim'' is if you try timeline therapy urself .

i can look at a peice of cake and say to myself '' mmm that cake looks nice'' but i will never know wether it actually does take taste nice or infact it tastes like sh!t until ive tried it myself.
  #65  
Old 28th February 2008, 16:08
david mckenna david mckenna is offline
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Default Re: The drugs don't work

just to let u all know something very important.

im 25 and ive only just started to face my fears and start beating SA.

i had all the tools and knowledge i needed when i was 23. i was ready at 23 but couldn't take action cos i was too lazy. i wasted two whole years.

then i used x's end procrastination CD and it cured my laziness at the root.

im now taking action to beating my SA and i wudn't be in this position if it wasn't for x.

and the reason i get so pissed of with people recommending medication on this site is becasue IM NOT ALLOWED TO RECOMMEND X TO PEOPLE ON THIS SITE.

ive had countless PM's from the people in charge of this site telling me that if i recommend x i'll be removed from the site for good.

medictaion is harmful, x is not

yet people are freely allowed to recommend medication on this site were as im not allowed to recommend x

and that is wot p!sses me off
  #66  
Old 28th February 2008, 16:08
Ben Ben is offline
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Default Re: The drugs don't work

Quote:
Originally Posted by david mckenna
im not gonna be working on my attitude trust me. if people dont like it then the problem lies with them.
You can be confident in your wisdon DM without being arrogant. Which is how you are coming across.

The best way to convince someone about your position is by rationally discussing its merits, not shouting at people and drowning out what they say has helped them.
  #67  
Old 28th February 2008, 16:11
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Default Re: The drugs don't work

wow I have read all of this with interest. A fight indeed!

If there is someone you know David who can cure depression/anxiety in a matter of minutes I am sure we would all like the name and number of this person! I would happily pay a good deal of money for this!!

and if it is instantly curable why are there still thousands of people suffering with SA?

I find it odd that you think you are the only one with balls on here with the courage to deal with your problems. But I admire your confidence in yourself!

We must all encourage one another to get help in whatever way we can, not slag one another off. Not very constructive.
  #68  
Old 28th February 2008, 16:12
chaddy chaddy is offline
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Default Re: The drugs don't work

Quote:
Originally Posted by david mckenna
medictaion is harmful
In my case, at one point in my life, NOT taking medication would have been far more harmful and potentially fatal.
  #69  
Old 28th February 2008, 16:12
Medea Medea is offline
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Default Re: The drugs don't work

Quote:
Originally Posted by david mckenna
just to let u all know something very important.

im 25 and ive only just started to face my fears and start beating SA.

i had all the tools and knowledge i needed when i was 23. i was ready at 23 but couldn't take action cos i was too lazy. i wasted two whole years.

then i used x's end procrastination CD and it cured my laziness at the root.

im now taking action to beating my SA and i wudn't be in this position if it wasn't for x.

and the reason i get so pissed of with people recommending medication on this site is becasue IM NOT ALLOWED TO RECOMMEND X TO PEOPLE ON THIS SITE.

ive had countless PM's from the people in charge of this site telling me that if i recommend x i'll be removed from the site for good.

medictaion is harmful, x is not

yet people are freely allowed to recommend medication on this site were as im not allowed to recommend thinkrightnow

and that is wot p!sses me off
Just because you believe your own failure to "cure" your SA was down to laziness does not mean that it follows that everyones failure to "cure" their SA is down to laziness.
  #70  
Old 28th February 2008, 16:13
Pal Pal is offline
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Default Re: The drugs don't work

Quote:
Originally Posted by david mckenna
im not gonna be working on my attitude trust me. if people dont like it then the problem lies with them.
You're not going to make many friends here that's for sure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by David McKenna
and the reason i get so pissed of with people recommending medication on this site is becasue IM NOT ALLOWED TO RECOMMEND X TO PEOPLE ON THIS SITE.

ive had countless PM's from the people in charge of this site telling me that if i recommend x i'll be removed from the site for good.
Why is this? What's wrong with x?

Unless of course x is actually your company, in which case the mods are well within their rights to remove it.
  #71  
Old 28th February 2008, 16:14
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Default Re: The drugs don't work

Quote:
Originally Posted by ben
You can be confident in your wisdon DM without being arrogant. Which is how you are coming across.

The best way to convince someone about your position is by rationally discussing its merits, not shouting at people and drowning out what they say has helped them.
Yes, very true, good post.
  #72  
Old 28th February 2008, 16:15
Pal Pal is offline
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Default Re: The drugs don't work

Quote:
Originally Posted by violet echoes*~
I 2nd this. Taking medication is absolutely beneficial for some; different methods work differently for every individual. There is NO 'One size fits all' when it comes to treating mental illnesses such as SA - you need to try different alternatives and see what works best for you.
And i third it, there have been several points in my life where medication has kept me going.
  #73  
Old 28th February 2008, 16:16
david mckenna david mckenna is offline
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Default Re: The drugs don't work

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pal
You're not going to make many friends here that's for sure.



Why is this? What's wrong with x?

Unless of course x is actually your company, in which case the mods are well within their rights to remove it.
whats wrong with x ?????? u tell me

its a godsend yet im not allowed to share it with fellow strugglers

well i live in liverpool (which innerversion will confirm) and im on benefits. x is in america and is a million dollar company so its definatley not my company
  #74  
Old 28th February 2008, 16:20
david mckenna david mckenna is offline
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Default Re: The drugs don't work

Quote:
Originally Posted by AnonymousLaura
Just because you believe your own failure to "cure" your SA was down to laziness does not mean that it follows that everyones failure to "cure" their SA is down to laziness.
u are totlally misunderstanding wot i sed.

i sed that for 2 whole years i didn't take action to beat my SA cos i was too lazy.

then i sed i cured my laziness with thinkrightnow.

wot im saying is that thinkrightnow cured my laziness at the root so x is a powerful thing.

yet im not allowed to share this powerful thing with others.

never did i once say that laziness is the reason why everyone has failed to beat SA. i honestly don't know were the hell u got that from
  #75  
Old 28th February 2008, 16:22
david mckenna david mckenna is offline
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Default Re: The drugs don't work

note the 2 x's in my thread.

i didn't put those x's there.

the people in charge of this site have done it

you don't see medication and ssri (or wotever they're called ) being x ed.

absolutely crazy !!!!!!!!!
  #76  
Old 28th February 2008, 16:22
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Default Re: The drugs don't work

Quote:
Originally Posted by david mckenna
whats wrong with x ?????? u tell me

its a godsend yet im not allowed to share it with fellow strugglers

well i live in liverpool (which innerversion will confirm) and im on benefits. x is in america and is a million dollar company so its definatley not my company
If the mods believe you are recieving some form of commition for your recommendation then i can well understand, otherwise i think it's unfair to block recommendations for things that might actually help other sufferers.
  #77  
Old 28th February 2008, 16:24
Occultus Occultus is offline
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Default Re: The drugs don't work

Quote:
Originally Posted by david mckenna
ive had countless PM's from the people in charge of this site telling me that if i recommend x i'll be removed from the site for good.
That's not quite right. We have never stopped you from recommending Thinkrightnow, although we have asked you not to post links to it in every post you make (which you were doing for a short while previously) as we considered it to be spam/advertising. If you wish to discuss the matter further might I suggest you take it to PM and not take the discussion any further off track. Thanks.
  #78  
Old 28th February 2008, 16:28
Innervision Innervision is offline
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Default Re: The drugs don't work

Do people actually "recommend" meds on the site, though?

I know people state whether or not meds have been useful to them, but I've not seen anyone put them forward as the only way to beat their problems.

People state that meds are one option, but I don't see any wholesale recommendation of meds being the answer.

Yes, meds do have potential side-effects, but this is where we have to weigh up the pros and cons. If I'd not used meds I'd be dead now, so the pros of their use certainly outweighed the cons in my case.

To be honest, I think we have to be careful how we push things here. If people feel dictated to they will pull back. That's how people are. Personally I think we have to credit people with the intelligence and the autonomy to look at what's on offer and decide for themselves.

Approach is key. Saying "This worked for me, check it out and see if it helps you, too" is fine. But telling people "This is the one and only way" will see people pulling back from your message, however well intentioned it is.

I know full well that your intentions are honourable, but if you want people to be open to your message it's best if you simply put it out there and let others make their own minds up. Ironically, for many, their SA has some roots in being ignored and overlooked by people who never listened to them, but rather kept on telling them what was 'good' for them instead. That approach disempowers and undermines people. Giving them opportunity to decide for themselves helps to empower them, though. I'm not on your case, David. Juist pointing out that sometimes the iron fist works better if it wears a velvet glove.
  #79  
Old 28th February 2008, 16:30
Paul2 Paul2 is offline
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Default Re: The drugs don't work

This thread is better than Eastenders
  #80  
Old 28th February 2008, 16:33
Innervision Innervision is offline
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Default Re: The drugs don't work

Quote:
Originally Posted by david mckenna
...well i live in liverpool (which innerversion will confirm)...
Yep, this is true. A 10 minute walk from my house, actually.

David, despite disagreeing with you on some points I hope you realise I'm not attacking you personally in this thread. We're both looking to get to the same destination, but we just use a different route. Despite our differences on this, I admire your guts.
  #81  
Old 28th February 2008, 16:36
Sarah Sarah is offline
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Default Re: The drugs don't work

Better than double bill coronation wedding!
  #82  
Old 28th February 2008, 16:36
david mckenna david mckenna is offline
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Default Re: The drugs don't work

Quote:
Originally Posted by Innervision
Yep, this is true. A 10 minute walk from my house, actually.

David, despite disagreeing with you on some points I hope you realise I'm not attacking you personally in this thread. We're both looking to get to the same destination, but we just use a different route. Despite our differences on this, I admire your guts.
i know u r not attacking me personally.

we are all having a healthy disagreement here. it wud be wrong if every one of us had the exact same veiws and that we all reframed from expressing them in case we offended each other.

i consider u a friend and u r perfectly free to disagree with wot i say
  #83  
Old 28th February 2008, 16:37
chaddy chaddy is offline
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Default Re: The drugs don't work

Quote:
Originally Posted by Innervision
To be honest, I think we have to be careful how we push things here. If people feel dictated to they will pull back. That's how people are. Personally I think we have to credit people with the intelligence and the autonomy to look at what's on offer and decide for themselves.

Approach is key. Saying "This worked for me, check it out and see if it helps you, too" is fine. But telling people "This is the one and only way" will see people pulling back from your message, however well intentioned it is.
That's true for me. From a position of being impartial, rather than being convinced to look into Thinkrightnow and NLP, I'm now far more skeptical about them.
  #84  
Old 28th February 2008, 16:38
Innervision Innervision is offline
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Default Re: The drugs don't work

Quote:
Originally Posted by david mckenna
i know u r not attacking me personally.

we are all having a healthy disagreement here. it wud be wrong if every one of us had the exact same veiws and that we all reframed from expressing them in case we offended each other.

i consider u a friend and u r perfectly free to disagree with wot i say
Thanks, David.

And on that note I'll leave it there, cos I have to be elsewhere very soon. Take care.
  #85  
Old 28th February 2008, 16:41
Pal Pal is offline
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Default Re: The drugs don't work

Quote:
Originally Posted by Innervision
Juist pointing out that sometimes the iron fist works better if it wears a velvet glove.
Words to live by, take note David.
  #86  
Old 28th February 2008, 16:44
mi©o mi©o is offline
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Default Re: The drugs don't work

Quote:
im pretty sure that wot im posting here is helpful to lots of people. its helpful to the people who are new to dealing with SA and who haven't got a clue of were to turn. they may think meds is the only way but by reading my threads they will realize that maybe meds isn't the best way to go about this
You seem to hold the idea that you're the only person that has an ounce of common sense, or the only person that doesn't see meds as the only answer. And you seem to hold the idea that you're the only person that is capable of giving any reasonable advice.

Yes, Lord.

I'm absolutely astounded that you've completely ignored all the points outlined in Innervision's unbiased and well thought out post. You're stubbornly determined to remain ignorant to everything anyone says. There's quite a few people, including myself, willing to brush aside your constant preaching of NLP purely based on your refreshingly positive outlook and sometimes inspiring attitude. Unfortunately the attacking of every opinion which differs to that of your own is losing you credibility by the second.

I don't see any of your arguments in this thread supported by any evidence whatsoever. Most of your claims arn't even true at all (and please have a think about that before you argue back at me, it's blatantly true and makes you look like a fool when you say otherwise). You're not being victimized here (in fact most people have been very accommodating). You are however, receiving some amount of hostility because you're not being rational, or even listening to anyone before you respond with your own hostility.

That's right, your attitude does stink right at this moment. Fire feeds fire. Sow what you reap 'n' all that.
  #87  
Old 28th February 2008, 17:02
david mckenna david mckenna is offline
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Default Re: The drugs don't work

Quote:
Originally Posted by mi©o
You seem to hold the idea that you're the only person that has an ounce of common sense, or the only person that doesn't see meds as the only answer. And you seem to hold the idea that you're the only person that is capable of giving any reasonable advice.

Yes, Lord.

I'm absolutely astounded that you've completely ignored all the points outlined in Innervision's unbiased and well thought out post. You're stubbornly determined to remain ignorant to everything anyone says. There's quite a few people, including myself, willing to brush aside your constant preaching of NLP purely based on your refreshingly positive outlook and sometimes inspiring attitude. Unfortunately the attacking of every opinion which differs to that of your own is losing you credibility by the second.

I don't see any of your arguments in this thread supported by any evidence whatsoever. Most of your claims arn't even true at all (and please have a think about that before you argue back at me, it's blatantly true and makes you look like a fool when you say otherwise). You're not being victimized here (in fact most people have been very accommodating). You are however, receiving some amount of hostility because you're not being rational, or even listening to anyone before you respond with your own hostility.

That's right, your attitude does stink right at this moment. Fire feeds fire. Sow what you reap 'n' all that.
ive sed it so many times im not looking for approval, credibility or to make friends.

i have veiws and i put them on the threads for people to look at. if they agree gud for them, if they dont good for them.

i dont care if people think my attitude stinks, i dont care if people think im arrogant. i dont care if people beleive wot i say and i dont care if people choose my way or not

im puttin gmy way out there so people have the option of wether to listen or not.

everything ive sed is true !!!!!!!

im not willing to listen to anyone you are rite, cos ive got my own veiws and im stubborn with them cos they are rite

my attitude stinks ! , well woopy doo
  #88  
Old 28th February 2008, 17:04
mi©o mi©o is offline
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Default Re: The drugs don't work

I have nothing more to say, your Honour.
  #89  
Old 28th February 2008, 17:16
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Default Re: The drugs don't work

Quote:
Originally Posted by david mckenna
ive sed it so many times im not looking for approval, credibility or to make friends.

i have veiws and i put them on the threads for people to look at. if they agree gud for them, if they dont good for them.

i dont care if people think my attitude stinks, i dont care if people think im arrogant. i dont care if people beleive wot i say and i dont care if people choose my way or not

im puttin gmy way out there so people have the option of wether to listen or not.

everything ive sed is true !!!!!!!

im not willing to listen to anyone you are rite, cos ive got my own veiws and im stubborn with them cos they are rite

my attitude stinks ! , well woopy doo
Then you will lose respect and in the end you will help no one.
  #90  
Old 28th February 2008, 17:29
Ben Ben is offline
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Default Re: The drugs don't work

Quote:
Originally Posted by david mckenna
ive sed it so many times im not looking for approval, credibility or to make friends.

i have veiws and i put them on the threads for people to look at. if they agree gud for them, if they dont good for them
By taking the attitude youre taking you are loosing "approval, credibility, friends" and no one will listen to your message anyway because they believe the person delivering it is close minded. Even if the message is an excellent and helpful one. (ie ditto Pals message - just seen it)

Read InnerVisions contributions again please!
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