Tories discuss stripping benefits claimants who refuse treatment for Anxiety.........

[The Jerk]

...........Good idea or Bad?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/poli...epression.html

[pheys]

surely sufferers should WANT to be cured?

[Lifebuoy]

Makes total sense... from the point of view of the economy and keeping down tax bills.

Makes less sense from the point of view that a patient has to be willing to cooperate with their treatment. CBT isn't going to work unless the client is really up for it. Similarly, you can prescribe meds, but you can't make a person swallow them.

But I'm glad to see that the Government is exploring all avenues... both to improve people's lives and to reduce spending on benefits if and where it's viable and reasonable to do so.

[Diddylou81]

They need to make accessing cbt and other therapies easier, the waiting lists are too long.

The only treatment I've been offered is antidepressants that have just made things worse

[Spectrelight]

The problem I had accessing CBT (which I've still never done) is that the appointments are only on a weekday in the daytime, which also happens to be when most people are working. I'd never tell my employer I have a mental problem so I wouldn't try and get the time off to go to it either. They really need to make it available in the evenings and at weekends.

[pheys]

but on the other hand...it is the Tories who have a history of punishing the poor/disabled.
(don't wanna turn this into a political debate so back on track; sorry)

[anxiouslondoner]

...meanwhile there are people who would like to get treatment but can't.
I predict it's a scheme to provide some shoddy, unhelpful "treatment" (no doubt through a private firm who are paid vast amounts of taxpayers money but under-deliver), declare people either cured or uncooperative and then take their benefits away without appeal. It's the standard modus operandi for the Tory party.

[pheys]

Originally Posted by justcallmephil

The problem I had accessing CBT (which I've still never done) is that the appointments are only on a weekday in the daytime, which also happens to be when most people are working. I'd never tell my employer I have a mental problem so I wouldn't try and get the time off to go to it either. They really need to make it available in the evenings and at weekends.

That's an excellent point. Same applied when I had to see a shrink. I told them that I work away and am only available on Saturday guaranteed or I lose money and then can't pay bills etc...but its like talking to a wall

[Pathetic_Earthling]

Originally Posted by justcallmephil

The problem I had accessing CBT (which I've still never done) is that the appointments are only on a weekday in the daytime, which also happens to be when most people are working. I'd never tell my employer I have a mental problem so I wouldn't try and get the time off to go to it either. They really need to make it available in the evenings and at weekends.

If you're working then you are not at risk of losing benefits anyway. It only applies to benefits claimants.

[Spectrelight]

I know, but I was making the point that if you got a job it would make it more difficult to access treatment.

[Reclue]

You have the legal right to refuse any medical treatment - unless you are declared mentally unfit to make such decisions.

It will violate peoples human rights - but that's not the first time the tories have done that.

This is a scheme to stick people on pills and declare them fit, then take away their benefits benefits, saying they are not cooperating, when they fail to cope with the pressure put on them.

It will lead to an increase in suicide.

[ßazza]

Forcing people to take medication and treatments - Great Idea! Bring on forced vaccinations too.

Then hit people with sticks if they dont do what they told. Then hit them with sticks regardless for not doing it fast enough.

IDK people are pretty f-ing stupid. Just because of how its worded they have no clue just how incredibly insane it is to allow them to take away more of our rights.

As bad and absurd as this sounds. As much as people who arnt vulnerable either dont care or understand. Its begins with vulnerable people and progresses from there. Slowly over time everyone would be forced to take treatments for all number of things. Maybe your too FAT so you must take >insert drug< to reduce health care costs. Maybe your too OLD so you must take >insert drugs< to shut you the fvck up, numb you down, so its easier to put you into care. Etc. Thats WHY we have things like rights and ethics within us to try protect against such immoral ideas.

Obviously they just ganna force people to do this stuff and regardless of the outcome they will try their damn hardest and put pressure on the system to declare people fit. Soon after that person just ganna crack.

For people who genuinely ready for help and wish to partake voluntarily the system will just be even more overloaded, more rushed, less personal and just generally less helpful than it already is.

There are many possible avenues to helping people but when government are suggesting ideas that are immoral that doesnt mean you have to support it because its the only idea they are coming up with. (Though im not saying its the only idea.) They would gladly kill old people if they thought they could do it. Atm the general public would not allow it. They should not allow this either.

[I Love My Cats]

Originally Posted by justcallmephil

The problem I had accessing CBT (which I've still never done) is that the appointments are only on a weekday in the daytime, which also happens to be when most people are working. I'd never tell my employer I have a mental problem so I wouldn't try and get the time off to go to it either. They really need to make it available in the evenings and at weekends.

I had the same issue. When I was off long-term sick, I accessed counselling and CBT, but after 3 months, I really had to get back to work because the therapy was great, but the lack of routine was counter-productive. Then I got back to work and couldn't cope, but couldn't access therapy any more, so I really struggled and the progress I made tailed off and I even began reverting back to old unhelpful ways of trying to cope. I kinda feel that unless I can find a way to pay privately, I'll inevitably end up off sick again.

It's a shame they can't look at the whole thing and develop flexible services, but as others have said, I fear this is less about making people genuinely well, and more about having a reason to sanction people or force them into work, instead of being proactive and trying to keep people working.

[AutumnLeaves]

Originally Posted by anxiouslondoner

...meanwhile there are people who would like to get treatment but can't.
I predict it's a scheme to provide some shoddy, unhelpful "treatment" (no doubt through a private firm who are paid vast amounts of taxpayers money but under-deliver), declare people either cured or uncooperative and then take their benefits away without appeal. It's the standard modus operandi for the Tory party.

Agree.

I don't want to be like this. I received a short course of CBT courtesy of my employer (which I thought pretty generous at the time) but it didn't help one bit with tackling my specific issues. I wasn't even permitted to talk about them. At the first session, the therapist told me honestly that for financial reasons, I would be given a good report. I would imagine this scheme would involve the same kind of 'treatment'. My friend has borderline personality disorder. I have seen him struggle with it for years, repeatedly getting fired and feeling like he can't go on. Once things got really bad, he finally got intensive long-term mindfulness therapy which did help. He was lucky. They told him there have been staff cuts and he was part of the last group to be run. I know someone else who didnt get taken seriously until her condition deteriorated so badly that her legs were becoming infected, her hair was falling out, she was peeing herself and wouldn't sleep lying down. Only then after repeated assessments did she finally get diagnosed and offered treatment. Pardon my lack of linguistic finesse, but f##% you Tories.

[Blumoon]

Originally Posted by anxiouslondoner

...meanwhile there are people who would like to get treatment but can't.
I predict it's a scheme to provide some shoddy, unhelpful "treatment" (no doubt through a private firm who are paid vast amounts of taxpayers money but under-deliver), declare people either cured or uncooperative and then take their benefits away without appeal. It's the standard modus operandi for the Tory party.

This.

[Reasonable Doubt]

This is worth bearing in mind.

Posted on 27/11/2013

More than one in ten (12%) people with mental health problems are stuck on waiting lists for over a year before receiving talking treatments and over half (54%) wait over three months, reveals a new report launched by the We Need to Talk coalition of which the mental health charity Mind is part of.

http://www.mind.org.uk/news-campaign...ng-treatments/

I know that report is a few months old but I'd be surprised if the situation had changed a great deal since then. It's pretty widely acknowledged that MH services in this country are underfunded and inadequate, and that there are huge variations in quality in different areas - it's likely that this is even more the case now that commissioning has been handed over to local consortia. This will just put more pressure on services that are already unable to cope with their existing workload. What will also happen is that it will make more people with MH problems reluctant to claim what they're entitled to from the state.

It's not about helping the mentally ill, and it's not really about reducing the deficit either (most of the benefits budget goes either to pensioners or people who are in work - you're talking about clawing back relatively tiny sums in this case). It's part of the Tories' electioneering strategy. It plays to the widely-held perception that most mentally ill people are malingerers and shirkers who just need a kick up the arse. Labour are shit but the Tories have nothing else to offer but sheer vindictiveness.

[Clayman]

It seems that the real issue is getting people off benefits and back into work. Is the current model they are using working? Have they tried something more radical like setting up companies and creating jobs that people with mental illness can do? Do you think it would work or is that a bad idea?

[Olly.]

Originally Posted by Clayman

It seems that the real issue is getting people off benefits and back into work. Is the current model they are using working? Have they tried something more radical like setting up companies and creating jobs that people with mental illness can do? Do you think it would work or is that a bad idea?

Maybe in an ideal world that would work, but I can't see how it work in reality, nor can I see the government putting money towards such a scheme, like already said, they have no interest in helping those with mental illnesses, they just want to reduce the Welfare budget as much as they can and continue their policy of demonising the vulnerable and worse off people in society and its typical of this government to make such plans without taking into account vital factors, like for instance the fact that therapy is difficult enough to get these days due to MH services being underfunded anyway.

[Clayman]

^yeah I get what you mean Olly. Sometimes I just like to dream and think up weird and unusual ideas.

[Lifebuoy]

I think this discussion has got a bit skewed. I would guess that the thinking behind this idea is that people who are depressed or who have phobias shouldn't be able to stay at home receiving hand outs of taxpayers money if they aren't willing to accept NHS treatment.

The idea would be to say to them 'If you refuse help to get you better, then you will be denying yourself the right to be supported by everyone... because frankly you aren't playing your part'.

To me, it doesn't sound unreasonable. But I guess it would sound unreasonable if you feel that people should be entitled to benefits, no matter what.

[Hindsight]

Tories have only ever cared about the rich....Why punish poor souls who haven't asked for this life?...why don't they get the poor, mentally ill, round 'em all up in a desolate place and machine gun them...just like in The Great Escape...problem solved.

Walk a mile in my shoes Cam and Co and then judge!!

[Mr. Nobody]

on the face of it,. I'd imagine most people with anxiety and depression were already seeking help for their condition,.
if they weren't, I suppose this government incentive may prove to be a godsend to them,
maybe they would have been too isolated or fearful to initiate getting help before ?

I find this interesting in another way,.
so far, it's been quite difficuilt and a bit hit-and-miss trying to get help for depression and anxiety on the NHS,.
maybe this change of policy may open up more help for people with mental health problems and hopefully cut down waiting times for treatments,.
[ I seem to recall waiting about 6 months to actually be seen by someone, and then another 4 months before any treatment began ]

[firemonkey]

Those who zealously push cbt will probably be pleased with this . It sounds like an extension of the ' patch a gaping wound with a plaster and send them off to work' mentality that's already being promoted. Really trying to help people have better lives is a secondary/tertiary consideration.

[anxiouslondoner]

Originally Posted by Lifebuoy

I think this discussion has got a bit skewed. I would guess that the thinking behind this idea is that people who are depressed or who have phobias shouldn't be able to stay at home receiving hand outs of taxpayers money if they aren't willing to accept NHS treatment.

The idea would be to say to them 'If you refuse help to get you better, then you will be denying yourself the right to be supported by everyone... because frankly you aren't playing your part'.

To me, it doesn't sound unreasonable. But I guess it would sound unreasonable if you feel that people should be entitled to benefits, no matter what.

I don't believe everyone is entitled to benefits; who would pay them? But I do believe it's the right thing to do to provide people who can't work a safety net to allow them to exist, rather than leaving them to starve to death.
If there aren't enough jobs to go around, what's the point in forcing people to spend their time searching for jobs which don't exist?
I'd rather see a society where everyone who can contribute is expected and encouraged to do so, it's not as if there isn't work that needs doing, but after a point that becomes uneconomical; it costs a lot more to employ someone than just their salary, you need to provide training, management, equipment, premises etc.
I can see the supposed theory behind this announcement; obviously providing mental health care to those that need it is a good thing, whether to get them back into work or simply as part of the national health service to help improve their quality of life. However given the track record of the Tories, it's more likely simply another scheme for stopping the "scroungers" who "pretend to be sick" in order not to work, despite there not being any work available for them to do! Just so the govt can look tough on benefits fraud. (No doubt some people do that, but given the lack of employment, forcing people who don't want to to look for work that doesn't exist is pointless and counterproductive)

[Damian]

Originally Posted by Diddylou81

They need to make accessing cbt and other therapies easier, the waiting lists are too long.

The only treatment I've been offered is antidepressants that have just made things worse

agreed when i took a turn for the worse a while back i had to wait 6 weeks to see someone, how long have you been on your antidepressants, i've always been on fluoxitine in the past off and on then when i needed again after some pretty bad anxiety it made feel terrible and worse, i was told to stick with it as they can make you feel worse for a while, i gave it a month then i had to stop. i was then given citalopram which worked very well for a couple years but now i don't notice much benefit.