8 months sober but going to drink again

[BritishPeace]

For some of you that have known me a while you may well be aware that I had/have alcohol problems and some would say I am an alcoholic. I began heavily drinking at 14/15 and could drink more than others (be the last one standing) and I loved it for the most part despite never having employment or a relationship etc. while drinking. It caused me some problems but I had a lot of fun, I drank everyday in the end. I went to hospital (alongside being involved in rehab and AA) and stopped drinking in May 2015 therefore I have been sober 8 months (and from all psychoactive substances apart from caffeine). Anyway, I do not accept many things in AA because I am a scientist and they contradict what we know about evidence and I have drifted away from people who are "12-steppers" (though I did do the 12-steps myself). I have talked to some people who were once alcoholics and now moderate their alcohol content and tonight I have decided to break my sobriety. I am going to try to drink three Guinnesses tonight and three tomorrow night if I feel like it and make sure I do not drink more than two days a week. I have been programmed in AA to think that one drink will lead to disaster (jails, institutions, and death) but I do not think that this is true, however, it is hard to break away from something that has been indoctrinated into me. I do not want anyone saying I will spiral back into alcoholism in case it makes me do that (self-fulfilling prophecy) and am just writing this because I have nowhere else to write it on a public platform.

[Dougella]

There have been some interesting studies in recent years showing that the way we have previously thought about addiction, in that like you say the idea that someone with an addiction problem can never have that substance again or they will go immediately back to where they were before isn't necessarily the case. I think they have found that the overall picture of someone's life is more important.

So, hope things go ok.

[BritishPeace]

It's the Irish in me

[Cairn]

I've been sober for 13 months and 3 days.

I drank for 6 years and for most of that it was everyday.

3 or 4 litres of cider a day, sometimes more of the stronger shite like Frosty Jacks etc.

Can't say I was an alcoholic because I had no withdrawal symptoms but it took a cancer scare for me to finally stop and I'm glad I did.

I have an addictive personality and can't touch the stuff.

I'd feel gutted now if I just had a single mouthful tbh.

[BritishPeace]

I can understand how a major health scare could put someone off for good

[Cairn]

Originally Posted by BritishPeace

I can understand how a major health scare could put someone off for good

Lol that's what it took otherwise Id still be at it now.

I can't say I miss it at all tbh.

[BritishPeace]

Originally Posted by Cairn

Lol that's what it took otherwise Id still be at it now.

I can't say I miss it at all tbh.

Well here goes, I had to go to Tesco because they were cheaper. My Dad is lecturing me not to drink and drive but his lecturing makes me worse! I don't miss it for the most part but I just feel life is more boring and I do miss the warm feeling, and I don't like feeling like a disease who can never drink again. I always remember I could write well and do boring work while sipping a drink and I need to write my dissertation so hopefully it will help me write it.

[Cairn]

The way I see it mate is there's nothing wrong with having a pint or glass of wine once a day, and getting a bit pissed on a friday or saturday night.

I can't do that though.

The other day I thought about how it would be nice to get a bit pissed just on a saturday night while I watch the boxing or MMA, then thought, actually no, I don't need it,I don't miss it, don't really want it and couldn't do it without ending up in the bloody offie or supermarket the next day, coming out with a bottle or two.

I'm happy and lucky that I don't get that craving I used to have and never ended up a full blown alcoholic.

[Between The Bars]

Originally Posted by Legion

Can't believe you like guiness tbh. Dirty mud water!

It's fucckin lovely.

Originally Posted by BritishPeace

It's the Irish in me

Aye, blame the Irish!

Originally Posted by Cairn

The way I see it mate is there's nothing wrong with having a pint or glass of wine once a day, and getting a bit pissed on a friday or saturday night.

Life is short, get pissed, Friday, Saturday, and fkn Sunday.

[Between The Bars]

I have to ask the question though Cairn. What's being sober for that length of time done for you?

[BritishPeace]

Well the experiment came off alright so far, our hats are off to you if you can drink like a gentleman. I drank four pints of guinness, I didn't feel drunk really just tired and bit wooshy. It didn't set off a craving and I was alright. Feel quite tired and I usually get up at 7-8 but got up at 11am! Not productive and I wouldn't rave about drinking but it's alright.

[BritishPeace]

Yes there is a bit of evidence that Dry January works to reduce alcohol consumption year-round because it breaks the habit like you say. I'm just not looking forward to going to rehab and telling them I relapsed, however it's no big deal. But they will probably tell me I will die in a few months and lose everything I own lol.

The alcohol did make me feel less bored and I did some work while drinking. I made a few rules before I started: never drink spirits only wine or lager/beer/stout; only drink two out of seven days, and try to keep with 14 units which is around 6 pints or 8 cans of guinness. My mate who is an alcoholic said only try it if you are sure you can handle it and I think I am sure at this point. Sometimes at events there is wine and I would like to be able to go and have a glass instead of feeling left out or leaving early.

[Cairn]

Originally Posted by Between The Bars

I have to ask the question though Cairn. What's being sober for that length of time done for you?

Just given me more energy in general and I don't feel like shit as much as I used to. lol

Saved me a load of money to spend on other things.

Think my testosterone levels have been given a little boost as well.

I never used drink to fight anxiety though like a lot of people do, just depression and only drank at home.


I don't get as depressed as much now though and honestly don't miss it at all or get any cravings.

[Cairn]

Originally Posted by Between The Bars

Life is short, get pissed, Friday, Saturday, and fkn Sunday.

I can't I have to do Monday, tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday too if I start.

[Copernicium]

If you've been in hospital, rehab and AA due to your previous drinking habits, it doesn't take a genius to work out that 'experimenting' with a few innocent Guinnesses after 8 months sober is not the greatest idea you've ever had.

As others have said, look after yourself.

[Between The Bars]

HermannHesee - Who mentioned, drunk driving?

You? AYE.

Don't. ok?

[anxiouslondoner]

Originally Posted by Between The Bars

HermannHesee - Who mentioned, drunk driving?

You? AYE.

Don't. ok?

Originally Posted by BritishPeace

My Dad is lecturing me not to drink and drive but his lecturing makes me worse!

[TTSP]

I think you might be dismissing Alcoholics Anonymous too easily. I have a very close friend who is 6 years sober and AA played a large role in that. She doesn't get too wrapped up in the religious aspects of it but the 12 steps seemed to have helped her enormously.

I don't think it's that having one drink and you will end up in "jail, institutions, death" but that for recovering alcoholics one drink can easily spiral out of control and reignite their dependency. I'm sure you know that addiction can influence desperate actions: shoplifting booze, stealing relatives money for booze, doing things for booze.

I must admit though, my friend was given 3 days to live due to the amount of damage copious drinking had done to her body. She was bedridden for two months before she finally became sober and lost her withdrawal symptoms. She's been told that if she relapses again it will likely kill her, so no alcohol for the rest of her life. So my understanding of alcoholism and AA come from one of the worst case scenarios, bar death. Perhaps you could successfully drink in moderation. However, that's a risky decision to take when you're a self-confessed alcholic. My friend relapsed several times in the space of afew years, each time thinking that she would only drink in moderation, or only at social occasions, or only at special occasions. It didn't work for her. I can't guarantee that it wouldn't work for you, but again, alcohol dependency is ruthless. Personally, I wouldn't advise you to start drinking again.

My friend has said that AA meetings saved her life and not so much by the doctrine of AA, but by the support and shared understanding and experiences from other recovering alcoholics in the meetings who she has got to know over the years. Going to meetings puts things into perspective for her. When she shares her problems they are falling on understanding ears who have most likely had and overcome that thought, action or experience. There are many there who can offer advice and a shoulder to cry on at the worst of times. When someone new attends, very often in the early and most difficult stage of recovery, she can see her old self in them, how far she has come and what she is staying sober for.

Since my friend became sober 6 years ago she has since attended a 'second chance college' and received a Certificate of Higher Education which allowed her to go to university where she achieved a 2:1. She's now a mother to the most adorable baby girl, she has her own place and is learning to drive. She also still attends AA meetings every now and then.

[Coffee]

I agree with @Copernicum

As the son of an alcoholic I know a rationalisation when I see one.

You have built up this story that life is more boring sober, you don't want to be like this or like that, you don't believe this or that, that the next drink can be considered in isolation form everything that's gone before - it's all just a construction to justify giving in to the craving.

I don't judge you for it because I know it's not you per se, it's the addiction pulling your mind's strings, but I hope you realise what's going on and get it back under control.

[Generation Erm]

don't do it. its a trap. booze has a way of making you believe you can control it. I was one month sober. one irish coffee led to drinking a bottle of whisky. you may have more will power but its not worth the risk.

[hollowone]

It's funny I stumbled accross this thread since I have just been reading about the lack of evidence base of AA and how it's based on religion, and have also been reading about graded cue exposure treatment.

As for starting drinking again; if you have been physically dependent, it's probably pretty risky. The main argument against resuming drinking if you've been physically dependent, is that your body quickly build-up tolerance. The spiral of tolerance, needing more to get the same sweet spot, more tolerance, needing more can ensue quickly.

Anyway, the question(s) about AA; did they help you identify triggers, difficult social situations, how to cope with negative emotions, coping skills for cravings and everything else? For example, if people have difficulty not drinking too much due to social anxiety, do they teach people how to handle various social difficulties? If people drink because they're feeling lonely, depressed, or like failures, does AA help people get their missing needs me?

I don't know if you're familiar Ivan Pavlov (not personally of course), respondent conditioning, and his dog experiment. Let me give some background to the experiment. Since dogs salivate when exposed to food, Pavlov's experiment involved ringing a bell every time he fed them. Eventually, there came a time when the dogs would salivate at the sound of the bell with no food. This is because the primitive part of the brain responsible for the salivation had learned to assocaite the bell with food. The bell had become what's called the 'conditioned stimulus'.

Addictions work in a very similar manner. Suppose one started drinking say, to relieve the anxiety in certain social situations, eventually over time, the situation in which one drinks in will directly trigger cravings (e.g. the pub, the time of day, the people etc), because it too has become a 'conditioned stimulus'. Cravings are generated by the primitive emotional brain because it has learned over time to generate cravings.

Judging by what you've said in the OP, it sounds like you've been implimenting 'graded cue exposure therapy' on yourself, exposing yourself to the trigger for cravings, and are having quite some success. This process gradually teaches the primitive emotional brain not to generate cravings. It in theory is supposed to reverse the conditioning process through which your brain learned to generate cravings.

This concept of respondent conditioning is well understood and well researched. Graded exposure therapy for social anxiety is also based on the principle.

Unlike AA, cue-exposure therapy, and the teaching of coping skills is actually based on scientific evidence.

One of the most shocking things I've read about AA is that of getting people to admit that they are powerless. There was a recent program about recovered alcoholics giving their stories. One guy said he felt so depressed after being made to admit that, that he went straight down the pub.

Also regarding that same program, but on a similar note; a lot of the stories people were telling about why they started drinking were very often feelings of loneliness, and anxiety in social situations.

Although I've never been dependent on alcohol, from what I've seen of AA, it doesn't strike me as the sort of help that would address the psychological parts of one's life in enough detail, nor be comprehensive enough in eaching coping skills.

[TTSP]

Originally Posted by hollowone

It's funny I stumbled accross this thread since I have just been reading about the lack of evidence base of AA and how it's based on religion, and have also been reading about graded cue exposure treatment.

As for starting drinking again; if you have been physically dependent, it's probably pretty risky. The main argument against resuming drinking if you've been physically dependent, is that your body quickly build-up tolerance. The spiral of tolerance, needing more to get the same sweet spot, more tolerance, needing more can ensue quickly.

Anyway, the question(s) about AA; did they help you identify triggers, difficult social situations, how to cope with negative emotions, coping skills for cravings and everything else? For example, if people have difficulty not drinking too much due to social anxiety, do they teach people how to handle various social difficulties? If people drink because they're feeling lonely, depressed, or like failures, does AA help people get their missing needs me?

I don't know if you're familiar Ivan Pavlov (not personally of course), respondent conditioning, and his dog experiment. Let me give some background to the experiment. Since dogs salivate when exposed to food, Pavlov's experiment involved ringing a bell every time he fed them. Eventually, there came a time when the dogs would salivate at the sound of the bell with no food. This is because the primitive part of the brain responsible for the salivation had learned to assocaite the bell with food. The bell had become what's called the 'conditioned stimulus'.

Addictions work in a very similar manner. Suppose one started drinking say, to relieve the anxiety in certain social situations, eventually over time, the situation in which one drinks in will directly trigger cravings (e.g. the pub, the time of day, the people etc), because it too has become a 'conditioned stimulus'. Cravings are generated by the primitive emotional brain because it has learned over time to generate cravings.

Judging by what you've said in the OP, it sounds like you've been implimenting 'graded cue exposure therapy' on yourself, exposing yourself to the trigger for cravings, and are having quite some success. This process gradually teaches the primitive emotional brain not to generate cravings. It in theory is supposed to reverse the conditioning process through which your brain learned to generate cravings.

This concept of respondent conditioning is well understood and well researched. Graded exposure therapy for social anxiety is also based on the principle.

Unlike AA, cue-exposure therapy, and the teaching of coping skills is actually based on scientific evidence.

One of the most shocking things I've read about AA is that of getting people to admit that they are powerless. There was a recent program about recovered alcoholics giving their stories. One guy said he felt so depressed after being made to admit that, that he went straight down the pub.

Also regarding that same program, but on a similar note; a lot of the stories people were telling about why they started drinking were very often feelings of loneliness, and anxiety in social situations.

Although I've never been dependent on alcohol, from what I've seen of AA, it doesn't strike me as the sort of help that would address the psychological parts of one's life in enough detail, nor be comprehensive enough in eaching coping skills.

I think you misunderstand what AA actually is, it's not an institution. As in, it does not own centres around the country, it does not employ therapists or staff to attend the group meetings neither.

AA meetings are organised by recovering alcoholics across the country by renting rooms out at the local town hall or church. Sometimes the Alcholics Anonymous organisation pays for the rent, but sometimes not. There will be no one there who represents Alcoholics Anonymous, just a group of people, some who have read AA material, who want to reach or maintain sobriety.

So when you ask: "did they help you identify triggers, difficult social situations, how to cope with negative emotions, coping skills for cravings and everything else? For example, if people have difficulty not drinking too much due to social anxiety, do they teach people how to handle various social difficulties? If people drink because they're feeling lonely, depressed, or like failures, does AA help people get their missing needs"

... it's difficult to answer as there are not official teaching bodies there. There will most likely be recovering alcoholics who have been sober for several decades with valuable knowledge to share, but they're not teachers, therapists or scientists. One significant aspect of AA meetings is to identify your own issues with drinking through listening and sharing experiences of other alcholics. The structure of an AA meeting, as I've been told, is someone volunteering to talk about their drinking history or some insight gained in their sobriety for around 20 minutes, which is known as the 'main share'. Prior to this everyone introduces themselves and everyone, unless they don't want to, offers a smaller share of a few minutes. The rest is informal socialising with refreshments. So everyone is learning from each other how they handled their social anxiety or depression in relation to drinking and it's also a vehicle for those who do feel lonely, depressed or have social anxiety to get out of the house and visit a friendly and supportive environment.

On the powerless anecdote - it does sound rather counterproductive but I imagine this could have also been a misinterpretation on his part. To a certain extent everyone is somewhat powerless. We cannot fully control whether we develop cancer, whether we get hit by a car, fall in love, lose our job or so on. I would imagine that this notion of powerlessness is offered in an attempt to prevent alcoholics from thinking they can moderate their consumption of alcohol. And by alcoholics I mean those who are physically dependent as you noted above. I can understand why you think there could be a solution for alcoholics to resume drinking again but I can also understand why AA would not want that due to the amount of alcoholics who have died in their refusal to stop drinking.

On the last part, again, AA is not a learning facility or treatment centre. Recovering alcholics often go through rehab and therapy before AA where I would imagine the stuff you're talking about is much more applicable. To me, these AA meetings seem like the 'social groups' I used to attend at day treatment centres for mental health.

I can see how AA material can be questioned, and I agree on doing such as a large part of it was written in the 30/40s and therefore would probably need revising. But AA meetings are much more than that.

[BritishPeace]

Well at my latest AA meeting I got derided for saying my own mind is my Higher Power (God), your mind got you into this mess it's not gonna get you out of it Most rehabs are based on the 12-steps in this country. I'm not against AA at all it helped in the beginning in a sense but I was rather introjected by the whole thing. But on researching further it appears that abstinence is NOT a good treatment for people with alcohol disorders because as Sinclair described with the Alcohol Deprivation Effect, trying to eliminate all alcohol makes people drink more

[hollowone]

Abstinence is probably more appropriate for people who've had severe physical dependency (where withdrawal symptoms become dangerous) and if there's been liver scarring, and alcohol-related liver diseases, and if one's life is in danger.

As for why alcohol is comforting, it's important to write down the situations in which you use it, the degree of wanting it. It's outrageous that the service I was referred to by my doctor when I complained about difficulty not to drinking too much too much didn't do one iota to help me do this.

Whether your goal is to abstain or stick to moderate limits, start with the easiest and most manageable situations first. It's unrealistic to expect to cope with every single situation in which you find it difficult not to drink, or to stop once you've started. Things like this have got to be taken step-by-step. It's almost like learning a musical instrument or a foreign language, it's something that needs practice.

AA groups are great from the point of view of peer support, sharing your stories and so forth, but rehab programs that are based on 12-steps; things could be better. Even in the face of science, cognitive behavioural therapy techniques, coping strategies, graded exposure, image replacement and so forth has been proven way more effective, the question is, why aren't those treatments more widely-available and accessible?

The community alcohol and drug advisory service I was referred to last year seemed along similar lines to the twelve-step model. The thing is, when I was referred, I was finding it difficult to stick to 21 units a week, with regular evening binges, and was worried about becoming dependent. After my doctors appointment (she asked me everything about the situations, feelings I experience, who with etc.) and I was hopeful who she was referring me to would actually help teach me coping skills for these situations. I was sorely disappointed. All it was, was just a load of pep talk about the costs of drinking (which I know anyway, that's why I made the doctor's appt in the first place, duh), arm twisting to stop completely (the therapist was a former hardcore alcoholic), didn't know my social needs, didn't know what I found difficult in social situations, didn't know what made the isolation unbearable, didn't help me with ways to reduce isolation and better meet my social needs.

What pissed me off, was that I was treated as if I was a hardcore alcoholic. It's just this whole one-size-fits-all attitude. Over the new year, I've managed to cut down by myself using cognitive behavioural therapy techniques.

[John4965]

We are all on our own journey - which can take so many paths. The longing to be happy, loved - feeling safe and secure !. My addict head talks to me almost everyday, I find some days harder than others. I have huge amounts of respect for AA and everything that it stands for. I have attended hundreds of meetings over the years and I have seen first hand just how many lives it has saved. I struggle with AA not because I dont agree with the Traditions etc - but with my inability to be able to 'connect' with the people within it. I always feel on the outside and I trully hate that but which is my own issue and not that of AA. My illness has progressed over the years to the point that if my 'head' convinces me that I am able to control my drinking to a few beers, which it does every now and then, I would go into blackout for a period of days - leading onto horrific withdrawal. It's the same every time ! No amount of therapy ( which I have had over the years ) for me would be able to stop this - i am totally powerless in this regards. We are all different tho - at different stages of our own journey and must learn from our own experiences. Look after your self !