The Autism-Spectrum Quotient (AQ) Test

[Copernicium]

Originally Posted by nessa456

Society is undoubtedly based on hierarchies and pecking orders -it's the norm.

Yes, but this doesn't help in terms of dealing with other people on a daily basis.

Society has to be told to value diversity and difference but often doesn't want to know.

True.

I have an 'us and them' worldview like Cync but I think mine is less bleak ie I
react against the prejudice instead of just accepting it as my lot in life.

Well that sounds a bit more positive.

[nessa456]

Originally Posted by Copernicium

You were doing quite well until you dragged your political prejudices into it. You explain how your personal experiences shaped the way you view people, but I wonder if you haven't taken a perspective derived from abuse/harrassment/bullying/exclusion/ostrasism in early life and applied it indiscriminately to everyone ever since. This could account for your view of yourself and the world as different from most other people's.




The point remains however that I'm not aware, consciously or subconsciously, of ever thinking in terms of people being inferior because of a physical or mental condition. I don't think most people do. Most people just think of people with autism or Asperger's as different, that's all.




If you see others as predators then you must think of yourself as prey. This would seem to stem from the childhood experiences you mentioned earlier.

Selfishness is only a part of the picture. Humans are social animals. Language, communication, cooperation, teamwork, altruism, sacrifice, sharing and all the other non-selfish aspects of humanity are equally as important in terms of our success as a species and all have an evolutionary reason, as does morality. The religious urge is actually a by-product of human psychology, which is why it is found universally all over the world in every human population, rather than being a tool of subjugation.

What I'm trying to get at, I suppose, is that the framework you've developed and imposed on your view of the world as a way of coping might actually be limiting and unhelpful now. It's just my opinion, but it might be time for a paradigm shift.

You can only speak from your own experiences of other people though.

I'm here to back up what Cynic says as I've had the same kind of experiences as he relates. Don't you find it strange that we both have AS and both have quite a negative view of humanity? Coincidence or something else? If you want further evidence join 'Wrong Planet' forum and see plenty of others with AS with a similar mindset. It's no coincidence, it's a direct result of being generally devalued by society.

People obviously deal with this in a variety of ways. I'd say by the very fact Cynic is still here on this planet his mindset has had some advantages ie he hasn't given in.

[kastra]

FWIW I don't have this stratified angry view of society, but people with ASDs do tend to have very fixed rigid views on the world which take a lot of work to alter. It's easier to assume the world works by definitive societal rules but after a lot of therapy I can see it isn't true.

nessa you say you are never malicious but you have made posts on here which definitely come across as such, maybe you are misinterpreting society and 'NTs' as much as you will say we are misinterpreting your posts?

[nessa456]

Originally Posted by kastra

FWIW I don't have this stratified angry view of society, but people with ASDs do tend to have very fixed rigid views on the world which take a lot of work to alter. It's easier to assume the world works by definitive societal rules but after a lot of therapy I can see it isn't true.

nessa you say you are never malicious but you have made posts on here which definitely come across as such, maybe you are misinterpreting society and 'NTs' as much as you will say we are misinterpreting your posts?

Sometimes probably

I do have a tendancy to pick the most negative interpretation of an ambiguous issue.

I value my fixed-mindedness at times though - it means I stick to my principles.

I don't want to be converted into an NT - I don't like most of them.

I'm probably as prejudiced as they are, just back the other way!

[Terence]

Well there was I exploring the possibility I might have been borderline or something. What a fool I've been and remain.

I scored 18 which is a low score I'd say.

[nessa456]

Originally Posted by Terence

Well there was I exploring the possibility I might have been borderline or something. What a fool I've been and remain.

I scored 18 which is a low score I'd say.

Don't worry, even if you don't appear to have many autistic traits I feel I have common ground with you so that seems to indicate that you can get on with a wide variety of people which is always a very good trait to have.

[Jello]

13

[MichaelAlone]

Originally Posted by halfemptyglass

Feel free to tell me to mind my own business and I'm not trying to be antagonistic, but I am very strongly getting the sense from both of you, Cynic and Nessa, of a lack of empathy - in that you cannot see the world from another point of view apart from the very rigid and fixed view that you hold.

When you talk about things like social hierarchies and "NT" negative traits etc, I can see aspects of those in society, and no doubt we all have them to some extent. But you seem to be expecting them and looking out for them, and ignoring anything that goes against your views - so they will never change.

I don't know how to say it exactly, but I feel like your views are very generalised, rather than taking into account individual differences and the fact that everyone is different.

But as I said, feel free to tell me butt out if you want to!

They're the same as as me - empathy is very difficult to feel (no pun intended). Autism isn't easy.

[Phool]

Originally Posted by Copernicium

Selfishness is only a part of the picture. Humans are social animals. Language, communication, cooperation, teamwork, altruism, sacrifice, sharing and all the other non-selfish aspects of humanity are equally as important in terms of our success as a species and all have an evolutionary reason, as does morality.

This is what I was trying to get at earlier - that not all humans are selfish or horrible. I've been through a lot of crap in my life but I never seem to reach this conclusion. I probably have a delusional faith in human nature, but I like the idea that most people are essentially good.

To Nessa - apologies if this thread got digressed - Cynic and Odd have started threads on 'Adult Giftedness' and 'Multiple Intelligences' which I was too embarrassed to do myself.

[nessa456]

Originally Posted by halfemptyglass

Feel free to tell me to mind my own business and I'm not trying to be antagonistic, but I am very strongly getting the sense from both of you, Cynic and Nessa, of a lack of empathy - in that you cannot see the world from another point of view apart from the very rigid and fixed view that you hold.

When you talk about things like social hierarchies and "NT" negative traits etc, I can see aspects of those in society, and no doubt we all have them to some extent. But you seem to be expecting them and looking out for them, and ignoring anything that goes against your views - so they will never change.

I don't know how to say it exactly, but I feel like your views are very generalised, rather than taking into account individual differences and the fact that everyone is different.

But as I said, feel free to tell me butt out if you want to!

I acknowledge that I have inflexible views and probably do generalise a lot but my views on life are only informed by my experiences.

People don't give me the benefit of the doubt for being different - they often go for the jugular. A lot are like this - am I supposed to pretend this doesn't happen? You appear to be wanting me to deny reality just to suit your own experience of life.

Most people do seem pretty similar to me so it's to be expected that I'd generalise.

I often wish I could hook up my brain to another person's and transfer all my experiences over to them as in 'Joe 90' - only then would you ever understand what I'm talking about. I don't have the language to describe it properly as it's evidently not your language ie you don't understand what I'm saying. My experience of people is evidently very different to yours/to the norm and it's ironic that you tell me I'm not putting myself into other people's shoes yet you seem unable to do that for me either.

[nessa456]

Originally Posted by Phool

This is what I was trying to get at earlier - that not all humans are selfish or horrible. I've been through a lot of crap in my life but I never seem to reach this conclusion. I probably have a delusional faith in human nature, but I like the idea that most people are essentially good.

To Nessa - apologies if this thread got digressed - Cynic and Odd have started threads on 'Adult Giftedness' and 'Multiple Intelligences' which I was too embarrassed to do myself.

No problem, digression on a thread is to be expected.

[catlover]

Originally Posted by Copernicium

Selfishness is only a part of the picture. Humans are social animals. Language, communication, cooperation, teamwork, altruism, sacrifice, sharing and all the other non-selfish aspects of humanity are equally as important in terms of our success as a species and all have an evolutionary reason, as does morality. The religious urge is actually a by-product of human psychology, which is why it is found universally all over the world in every human population, rather than being a tool of subjugation.

Good point.

But I would suggest that the evoluntionary advantages of cooperation may not extend, in a given population, to those individuals whose behavioral patterns deviate from the norm. In fact, it may be evolutionarily beneficial to "remove" such individuals from the population as they may consume resources while providing little material benefit to the group in return.

Thus, there may be an evolutionary explanation for the bullying and other hardships suffered by those who don't conform to the norms of society.

[nessa456]

Originally Posted by Cynic

Well for instance, if you're in the average workplace, and you're getting on with your work quietly and keeping to yourself, while everyone else is busy gossiping, bitching, backstabbing and involved in office politics, are you still in that category of consuming resources while offering little benifit - such as refusing to get involved in the socialising/aggro and concentrating on work instead? :hmmm:

Exactly!

I'd say that is the precise reason why we have survived in evolutionary terms - we are the ones who have progressed society a lot of the time. Many inventors, physicists, mathematicians and scientists have been on the autistic spectrum. We are originators while the NTs often just maintain the status quo.

We'd still all be back in caves playing with fire without us in other words!

So

[nessa456]

Originally Posted by Cynic

That tells me that if such people are nice to everyone except you, then they're not the ones with the problem.


What's the point of reacting against the prejudice when the entire weight of humanity will inevitablly come down on you?


The thing is, its nigh on impossible to meet a partner without socialising in groups in the first place. While I can't speak for you, I can definetely state with males that a decent standing within the group is an essential when it comes to attracting a partner. If the group as a whole don't accept you, then you can guarentee that none of the female members of the group will either, especially when there are well better offers within the group.


Well I can never see a like-minded person without speaking to them first, and can guarentee without doubt that 99% of people I see in the street are part of the group.

Evil is a bad thing even if the whole planet except one person were evil - it's innately bad, not because of the number of evil or non-evil people.

If people hadn't reacted against prejudice throughout history the slave trade would probably still be in existence in this country. Women wouldn't have the vote. Gay people would still be put in jail for being gay. Reacting against prejudice is everyone's duty. You fight the fight regardless of whether you think you'll definitely win or not but because you must fight to even be in with a chance of winning!

You exasperate me!

So much energy expended on useless negativity that helps no one, least of all yourself!

[catlover]

Originally Posted by Cynic

Well for instance, if you're in the average workplace, and you're getting on with your work quietly and keeping to yourself, while everyone else is busy gossiping, bitching, backstabbing and involved in office politics, are you still in that category of consuming resources while offering little benifit - such as refusing to get involved in the socialising/aggro and concentrating on work instead? :hmmm:

Agreed. In developed societies there are certainly opportunities for non-conformists to provide material benefits to the group.

I was referring to our ancestors, living in primitive hunter-gatherer societies, where (I would think) such opportunities would be less prevalent. What I'm saying is that the mindset that encourages persecution of "misfits" could have been engrained long ago, and might persist today even though the evolutionary reasons for its origination are no longer present.

[catlover]

Another possible explanation for the mistreatment that nonconformists experience is "scapegoating", a theory put forth by Rene Girard:

Humans are driven by desire for that which another has or wants (mimetic desire). This causes a triangulation of desire and results in conflict between the desiring parties. This mimetic contagion increases to a point where society is at risk; it is at this point that the scapegoat mechanism[10] is triggered. This is the point where one person is singled out as the cause of the trouble and is expelled or killed by the group. This person is the scapegoat. Social order is restored as people are contented that they have solved the cause of their problems by removing the scapegoated individual, and the cycle begins again. The keyword here is "content", scapegoating serves as a psychological relief for a group of people. Girard contends that this is what happened in the case of Jesus. -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scapegoating

[nessa456]

Originally Posted by halfemptyglass

I think we all make our judgements based on our own experiences, and I can imagine that I would have a much more negative outlook if I had more negative experiences. It just seems that you can't see that other people may have had different experiences, or that people can be a mix of good and bad.

It's almost like as well as social anxiety, you have a dislike of people as well.

And I repeat, I'm not trying to criticize you here, merely trying to understand your point of view. So please correct me if what I'm saying is wrong.

I would agree that yes I am quite misanthropic. I dislike the unpleasant people mainly though, not all humankind. When you have been on the receiving end of enough shit from others it can tend to make you dislike your fellow man though or want to avoid them.

I think I can start off perfectly nice; overly nice if anything but I have a lack of tolerance for cruelty and ignorance.

This is quite ironic actually because I can give you a number of examples of how I've intervened in public situations on behalf of other people, in the one instance to speak up for a small child who's parent(?) was treating her horribly - swearing as her and yanking her roughly by the arm on the bus, so I would say I'm quite public spirited actually.

How about you give me a few examples of what you've done to demonstrate your love for your fellow man instead of me and Cynic being constantly in the dock? An absence of saying anything unpleasant about people doesn't mean you've necessarily done anything to actively help others.

[nessa456]

Originally Posted by catlover

Another possible explanation for the mistreatment that nonconformists experience is "scapegoating", a theory put forth by Rene Girard:

Yes it's all there in the textbooks.

[nessa456]

[QUOTE=Cynic;1180934]Well I've never invented anything and AFAIK neither have you.


I've had some good ideas though. The Cafe Therapy one for a start.

I'm really glad I'm not a person who enjoys raining on other peoples' parades

[nessa456]

Originally Posted by Cynic

Well I've never invented anything and AFAIK neither have you.


But its the majority who decide what is good, and what is evil.
.

No they don't. Good and evil exist as concepts separately from what the majority decide. That is what ethics is all about.

Originally Posted by Cynic

Ok, we'll fight against the prejudice against Aspies, and while we're at it, let's fight against the prejudice against paedophiles and serial killers too, yeah?

That's how your average person would look at it.

I'd hardly put us in the same bracket as serial killers and paedophiles - we haven't broken the law for a start.

There's prejudice with good cause against them from a personal safety angle
and because what they do is morally wrong.

Originally Posted by Cynic

/me squares up to the entire NT power structure and set to take over the world. Aye right!
.

Evidently not but other people prefer to focus on making progress.

[nessa456]

Originally Posted by Cynic

Hmmm, I'm not so sure about that one. :hmmm:


Maybe we've not broke the written law of the land, but there are infinate unspoken standards which we haven't lived up to. Besides, if you wish to debate "the law", you'll find that the say-so of any NT that outranks you is "the law", especially as they have the backup of the group, whatever you, I or anyone else thinks as with paedos and serial killers, we do not fit the standards of society.

I tell you, when you're the "local wierdo" and if you face some mob attack because neighbours accuse you of "looking at their kids", who's broken the law there? You can guarentee that their actions will be excused one way or another. Why? Because we're social misfits who don't matter and the mob are just doing what they think is best - that's how the law would look at it.

I'm not the local weirdo though are you?

I matter as much as the next person. You need to stop projecting your feelings about yourself onto others.

[nessa456]

Originally Posted by Cynic

You've spoken of being singled out as the "freak". Are they not one and the same?


Well seen as I seem to stand out in a negative way at 99% of settings I've been in, then I guess I must be.


Based on what? Your own opinion?


What feelings am I projecting?

People use the word 'freak' about others all the time from what I've observed - the word has effectively become meaningless.

Who hasn't been singled out and bullied at some time or other?

I've been picked on yes and when I confide in people about it they usually act in a sympathetic manner; they don't use it to beat me over the head with lol

You project your feelings of being the permanent underdog with no hope of salvation onto me. I don't feel that way at all. I deal with my problems in a constructive manner instead of trying to drag others down as you seem to do.

This is far more about your attitude to life than the Asperger's Syndrome.

Tell me are there any support services for people with AS in your town?

[nessa456]

Originally Posted by Cynic

Maybe on the odd occasion off the odd individual, yes, but not full scale mobbing and exclusion - there is a difference.

I don't attempt to drag anyone anywhere.


Yes, the accomodation where I live is under a local autistic society.

I've never experienced "full scale mobbing and exclusion" have you?

You appear to be trying to drag me down into your pit of existentialist despair by informing me how terrible the world is. It is merely your opinion, nothing more.

This autistic society doesn't appear to be offering you much support if you have such a continually negative view of life.

Tell me what gives you joy in life?

[nessa456]

Originally Posted by Cynic

I dout anyone can. What should it offer in your opinion?


Joy in my life? Never the twain shall meet!

Some kind of support should be offered. Is there a Day Centre or Drop-In centre? Do they offer counselling?

What is the name of the organisation? Is it the NAS?

[nessa456]

Originally Posted by Cynic

No, its not the NAS, and yes, I've been going to the same mental health drop-in counselling centre for almost 10 years which is typically NT.

The only cure for me isn't legally available.

There are no services for adults with Asperger's Syndrome in Wolverhampton where I live. I am trying to get the PCT/LA to do something about this. It's hard going getting them to listen but they have a statutory duty to provide services for people wherever they are on the Autistic Spectrum.

[kastra]

You believe all that whilst having your housing provided for free by a charity, who I assume help with your support needs too?

Do you not see how those two things are not logically consistent? Obviously people have helped you out and continue to do so, you just choose to ignore it because it doesn't fit with this incredibly unrealistic world-view you have.

[Crazy]

Originally Posted by Cynic

The only cure for me isn't legally available.

My god, Cynic.................please don't say that

[catlover]

Originally Posted by Crazy

My god, Cynic.................please don't say that

Indeed. The world would be worse off in your absence. You are witty and intelligent and truth-seeking, and (based on your boxing vids) physically gifted.

[nessa456]

Originally Posted by Cynic

Probably not for much longer.

How come?

[Crazy]

Originally Posted by Cynic

I doubt it somehow.

No Cynic You can't say that because you don't know that.

You can't possibly know how what you say or do could affect others......

Even though you feel very alone/hopeless right now, remember that we're all together in this, we need to be there for each other.

Originally Posted by Cynic

Not an enviable task I can assure you.

No, you're right.

But I bet you would'nt want to be any other way.

Originally Posted by Cynic

If I was, I would have been a boxer back in my teens.

But in your teens you had other challenges, and you were probably already doing everything you possibly could just to try and survive in this *****d up world. That does not mean you're not gifted. Why be so hard on yourself?

Originally Posted by Cynic

Once the cuts are in full swing, there will probably be no welfare or funding for social services, and it will be a choice of an institution or the streets. After all, I can't see me getting full time employment.

I'm so sorry to hear that...

How about a part time job? There must be something you could do?