"I did such and such and got better afterwards, therefore such and such works"

[Wheelie Bin Bird]

It worked for me.

[Ajax Amsterdam]

Originally Posted by slrrrrp

Or perhaps the people who respond would give better advice because they have thought a bit more about what are good reasons to believe in a particular method.

I'm not so sure. I'm a trained and qualified counsellor, but my 'advice' is no better than anyone else's here. I don't even class anything I post here as 'advice'. It's simply my account of what has helped me and potentially could help someone else. It is entirely up to the reader to decide for themselves what resonates with them personally.

One thing I've become fully aware of over the years is that no single thing will help everyone, even though we share a common core issue. So no one can accurately claim that because something helped them, it will help everyone else. But what they can say is -''this helped me, so it may help you too, so try it if it resonates with you personally. I don't see anything wrong with that.

Even tried and tested therapy models do not necessarily help everyone they treat. CBT is extremely useful to some people, so they may state that it has 'worked' for them, and that is fair comment. I know some others hate CBT and find they cannot work with it at all. So no one can claim they have used something that will work across the board.

There is evidence for all manner of therapeutic models, yet not a single one of them can be proved to work for everyone, even if the client group all have generally the same mental health issues. So all people can post from is their perspective that they tried something, and it helped, or 'worked' for them.

Also, working through our own mental health issues is something of a personal learning curve. I know I learned a million lessons along the way that helped me, but I can't prove a single one of them scientifically. I don't want to either. All I'm concerned with is what works for me, not whether what works for me can be proved scientifically. If I pass on my experiences the reader can either adopt something that resonates with them, then try it themselves, or they can ignore it. I think that is a good thing with this site, in that people are not afraid to put out there their experiences of what has helped them. By doing this, it gives the reader an opportunity to adopt or reject ideas, thoughts, opinions, methods, observations etc that may or may not be useful to them personally.

If we are choosing a therapy model to work with, then seeking prior information on how effective a certain model has been shown to be with your particular issue can obviously be very useful. But even then, no model has ever been proved more effective than all the rest. So what works for one person may not help another anyway. So even if a person posts that something has helped them, and the method they used has statistical evidence to back it up, it still does not mean their advice is superior to other people's. The bottom line is still that they tried something and it helped. Other people will have tried that very same thing and reported no real change at all ... despite that statistical evidence.

To use a strand of Acceptance and Commitment Therapy or Solution-Focused Therapy for a moment, my personal take on things is to do what works, and drop what doesn't. It doesn't really matter if what works for you has reams of documented evidence to back it up. All that matters is that it works. And when people post what works for them, it throws other ideas and perspectives out there for others to adopt or reject at their own discretion. Also, much improvement can come from personal experience, gut instinct, intuition, lessons learned etc, and althouth this is extremely valuable to the person concerned, this cannot really be measured in a scientific way. Despite that, I often find posts posted from that perspective to be very useful to me.

The only time I'd get a little irritated is if someone came on here boldly stating that ''This worked for me, so it must work for you too''. But I don't recall many/any? instances of this happening. If it has, it's probably been on rare occasions.

As it stands, I think sauk is a vast resource of human experience, and in all that there is potential for discovering things that may help us personally. To me at least, whether that help is empirically tested doesn't really concern me. If it helps, I use it. If not, I drop it.

[slrrrrp]

Originally Posted by I Love My Cats

I'm trying to figure out your point overall. Do you feel it's not helpful for people to recommend a book, therapy or type of support, without finding a statistic somewhere to back it up (i.e. interviewing a cross section of readers of this book found that 57% had decreased their anxiety level afterwards)?

statistics? I'd be perfectly happy with someone posting a link like this to support a claim that, e.g. exercise is good for depression

[slrrrrp]

Originally Posted by halfemptyglass

there is no need to criticize those who don't.

Why not? It helps people refine their ideas

[TheInbetweener]

It would be a shame if this is the first thread a new member sees. 5 pages of no one here can help you and they shouldnt dare try because their feeling of it having helped is wrong because someone before them hasnt said its true and written a nice book about it.

I think it should be deleted, all harm, no good tbh. I hope the thread starter finds whatever he needs to help himself, but this thread shouldnt be here. Joining a support forum and then complaining of support being given.

[slrrrrp]

Originally Posted by surreyger

It would be a shame if this is the first thread a new member sees. 5 pages of no one here can help you and they shouldnt dare try because their feeling of it having helped is wrong because someone before them hasnt said its true and written a nice book about it.

I haven't said that at all and I've made it quite clear that SAUK is a good thing and I'm glad to belong here.

[TheInbetweener]

Originally Posted by slrrrrp

I haven't said that at all and I've made it quite clear that SAUK is a good thing and I'm glad to belong here.

Unfortunatly, nothing you have posted in this thread has in anyway made it sound like SAUK is a good thing, infact, it comes across as the opposite, thats it full of people who know nothing and shouldnt be sharing their wrongness, although im sure thats not what you meant to do.

Im not going to reply here again, I dont want to seem like im having a go or anything, I just think if you sign up to a support forum you are surely looking for ideas and support, and can find out what (if anything) works for you yourself through trial and error.

Only a few things here and there ive read on SAUK have helped me, and the way i see it is thats more than i had when I found the forum, so its all good surely?

[RTB]

There is no harm if someone thinks they're helping others as long as they are not asking for money in a scam.Everyone here probaly gets frustrated sometimes,they probaly get themselves to a reasonable state of mind and then come crashing down to a point where everything is bad karma again I find if you try and go with the flow and whilst doing so keep busy with life,it never stops me from learning new things and I find doing this always opens new doors in life.I,m a big believer that knowledge dispels fears and gives you a inner confidence thats personal to others but very at one with life as we know and perceive it.

[Ajax Amsterdam]

Originally Posted by slrrrrp

statistics? I'd be perfectly happy with someone posting a link like this to support a claim that, e.g. exercise is good for depression

A link is all well and good if it's posted, but a lack of a link does not invalidate a poster's experience of what helped them personally.

I just don't see the problem here. Why do people need to ''refine their ideas?'' They are posting about what helped them. Why does that need ''refining?'' I just cannot see the good it does to be critical of people offering up their experiences to others.

People here are in the process of trying to live more productive lives, not writing the definitive 'Get out of SA' book including research statistics and comprehensive bibliography. Maybe you are expecting just a little too much of posters. Why not do what I suspect most people here do when someone recommends something that resonates with them, namely google it to look into it further. Maybe SAUK is a sort of gateway to ideas, rather than the font of all knowledge.

Personally, I think we need to be encouraging people to relate what helps them, rather than discouraging them by in some way suggesting that unless they back up everything they say with statistical evidence their input is inferior.

[kastra]

Originally Posted by Benfica

Personally, I think we need to be encouraging people to relate what helps them, rather than discouraging them by in some way suggesting that unless they back up everything they say with statistical evidence their input is inferior.

Very well put.

I think it's kind of insulting to assume that people here won't even have the common sense to research a method themselves before throwing all their hopes behind it. This is a place to get suggestions, not somewhere you should make totally responsible for your recovery (or lack of it).

[Kevin Hodge]

i'm finding this thread a bit bizarre. it seems to be suggesting that we run the site as if we were giving evidence in court.

i dont think anyone has pointed out yet that NOTHING is proveable in psychology. i cant put wires on my head and measure my bad mood or my improvement. i can feel better but interpret it as feeling worse. so you cant ever prove that something made you feel better. you could go to the gym and come home feeling great but it might have been the paint fumes from where they were decorating the gym cafe that made you better.

i'll try to sum up what i mean in relation to all this.

1. what works for one person doesnt work for another

2. you cant take all of someone elses problems away by posting advice on here, you can only really offer support or suggestions

3. nothing is proveable in psychology, as above


i dont mean to be over critical but the nhs link about exercise is extremely vague and doesnt substantiate any of its claims. id say the average post on here of someones personal experiences is far more informative and also believable than a link that basically just says "ummm...exercise is good for you or something. i know a doctor".



end of the day, i guess if you dont want to read accounts of peoples success because they are unrefined or unsubstantiated, then dont i kind of feel like we are all being told that the way we post about our successes isnt good enough and we should pull our socks up :P

[slrrrrp]

Originally Posted by Benfica

People here are in the process of trying to live more productive lives, not writing the definitive 'Get out of SA' book including research statistics and comprehensive bibliography.

Don't be ridiculous: I haven't asked people to provide statistics and comprehensive bibliography - I'm asking for something quite mild: if you say it "works", provide objective evidence; if you think it's "helped" you, that's a different kettle of fish and requires a different standard of evidence: it's acceptable to use anecdote to support such claims.

I'm not asking people to provide evidence for every claim as some on this thread think - well done done for knocking down that straw man.

[slrrrrp]

Originally Posted by Benfica

A link is all well and good if it's posted, but a lack of a link does not invalidate a poster's experience of what helped them personally.

Thanks, another straw man.

[slrrrrp]

Originally Posted by seth brundle

i dont mean to be over critical but the nhs link about exercise is extremely vague and doesnt substantiate any of its claims. id say the average post on here of someones personal experiences is far more informative and also believable than a link that basically just says "ummm...exercise is good for you or something. i know a doctor".

Hold on, first of all you say that we shouldn't "run the site as if we were giving evidence in court" and then now you say that something given in evidence has to substantiate its claims, which is it?

[slrrrrp]

Originally Posted by Benfica

Why do people need to ''refine their ideas?''

Refined ideas are better. Aren't you trying to get me to refine mine?

[slrrrrp]

Originally Posted by kastra

Very well put.

I think it's kind of insulting to assume that people here won't even have the common sense to research a method themselves before throwing all their hopes behind it.

It's a bit insulting to assume that I think people won't even have the common sense to research a method themselves before throwing all their hopes behind it.

How about attacking my real position on the issue?

[kastra]

But if people do have that capability then there is no issue whatsoever, they are free to look up that information if they feel it is useful but I don't see why there's an obligation on the person making the suggestion.

[Lindy]

This thread is going in circles.

I'm not going to re-iterate what has been said time and time again on here, other than the fact that, ultimately, you can choose to try the things that other's claim have worked for them, or you can choose not to. People here are trying to support one another, and giving an account of their own personal experiences, in the hope that others can benefit from it too.

It seems you're overthinking the whole sitation, try not to - and just see this site for what it is. It really is a lot simpler than you're making out.

Lindy

[Ajax Amsterdam]

Originally Posted by slrrrrp

Don't be ridiculous: I haven't asked people to provide statistics and comprehensive bibliography - I'm asking for something quite mild: if you say it "works", provide objective evidence; if you think it's "helped" you, that's a different kettle of fish and requires a different standard of evidence: it's acceptable to use anecdote to support such claims.

I'm not asking people to provide evidence for every claim as some on this thread think - well done done for knocking down that straw man.

This is simply a support forum where people post experiences. There is no need whatsoever for people to back up their personal experiences just to suit others. They can never offer definitive proof for any therapy model, philosophy, way of living etc, simply because no definitive proof exists. There is nothing out there which has proof of working for everyone, so everything out there can only work for some people.

If something works for me, why do I need to find proof of that anyway? Also, how do you find objective evidence for something that can only ever be subjective anyway? It's absolutely clear that there is nothing out there that will help everyone. So there are only things out there that help some people. So people can only post from the perspective of what helped them, not from the perspective of what can be proved to help everyone.

When someone says ''it works'', they are really saying ''it worked for me''. They are not saying it will work for everyone. It is very difficult to provide objective truth for that. It is simply subjective truth, and can only ever be so. It is well established that, for instance, CBT 'works' for some people, but it is also well established that it doesn't 'work' for plenty of others. So no one can say CBT catagorically does or does not work. All that can be said is that it works for some. So surely, the truth is a subjective truth and depends on who is relating it to you.

Originally Posted by slrrrp

Refined ideas are better. Aren't you trying to get me to refine mine?

No, I'm not trying to get you to do anything at all. I simply disagree with you and have posted my personal thoughts on the topic.

I think I do understand what you are getting at. If someone says ''this works'' that is a very big statement indeed, and such claims are best backed up with some evidence if we are to take them seriously. But I don't really see people making the claim that something ''works'' across the board. I just see people saying what works for them personally. Even as a practicing counsellor I cannot state that the model I use ''works''. All I can say is that it has an evidence base that suggests it has the potential to help some people and has been shown to have helped people previously. Now if I was claiming that ''it worked'' across the board, I'd have some real explaining to do and evidence to find that doesn't actually exist. There is evidence that plenty of things have the potential to help, but none to suggest that there is anything that ''works'' for everyone. So the bottom line is that people will still only be posting from a subjective perspective.

[slrrrrp]

Originally Posted by Benfica

I don't really see people making the claim that something ''works'' across the board.

Nor do I, but I do see people making claims that something works:

e.g.

http://www.social-anxiety-community....ad.php?t=52895

[slrrrrp]

Originally Posted by Benfica

Even as a practicing counsellor I cannot state that the model I use ''works''. All I can say is that it has an evidence base that suggests it has the potential to help some people and has been shown to have helped people previously.

Well, I'm not really using "work" in such a strict way - anything that has a good evidence base I consider to work: it doesn't have to work for everybody. In the same way, I don't want proof in any strict sense.

[kastra]

Originally Posted by slrrrrp

Nor do I, but I do see people making claims that something works:

e.g.

http://www.social-anxiety-community....ad.php?t=52895

And I can see from the responses that people here are perfectly capable of rationally examining an idea and deciding for themselves if they think it will work or not, if those threads were full of people posting 'omg it's a cure I totally believe you let me give you my credit card number' then you'd have a point but that isn't the case.

[Ajax Amsterdam]

Originally Posted by slrrrrp

Well, I'm not really using "work" in such a strict way - anything that has a good evidence base I consider to work: it doesn't have to work for everybody. In the same way, I don't want proof in any strict sense.

OK. Fair enough.

Originally Posted by slrrrp

Nor do I, but I do see people making claims that something works:

I think people will always post claiming something has worked for them personally. I think that is no bad thing really. The more options and ideas thrown out there, the more the reader has to look at and draw their own conclusions from.

[nessa456]

I just discovered a good technique that worked for me - it didn't 'cure' me, just seemed to help me cope better with things:-

I like chewing rubber so I'd cut a small piece off an old hot water bottle and was chewing it and while doing this I happened to think through all the stuff I needed to do the next day (I had a lot to do including a visit to town/the bank which is always stressful for me) so I thought through what I had to do while doing the chewing ie I thought through a stressful situation while doing something enjoyable and relaxing. I think this had a good effect as it helped me to reprogramme my brain by associating a stressful situation with something enjoyable (ie the chewing).

Anyway I think this is a good way of programming your brain.

I think any advice could be potentially useful to another person so it's good to document your experiences.

[cl111]

Originally Posted by Jocasta

I suffered my SA at its worst 20-25 years ago. I only found out its name a year ago ... after I had effectively "cured" myself by stumbling around in a hit and miss fashion slowly, painfully and tediously getting myself better bit by bit ... with no support or understanding to my problems. People thought I was total odd-ball and I didn't realise that I was not alone.

Had there been more understanding of SA back then ... or had I stumbled on this website at the time I am sure that it would have not taken me 25yrs to get to the place I wanted to be. I would have not missed out on so much of my life in my teens and early 20's. This is time I will never get back and I could get angry and resentful about it but I try to use my experiences in a positive fashion.



Your posts are not pointless they are appreciated! All thoughts are appreciated. And I don't think we should be scared to share our experiences just cos some dont feel we have enough evidence to back them up! We can only try to help... We are not professing to be doctors are we lol!

I post on here hoping that one person can improve their life in a small way and take maybe just one tiny step forward. I would hate for someone to live the last 25yrs of my life.

I am starting to realise that my posts are pretty pointless though.

[Mr. Nobody]

I think slrrrp is getting this site mixed up with NHS 24


can't believe I've just sat and read through all that bollocks,..... pfft.
(mods,.. maybe this thread should be in The basement )

hmm,. must try that "paint fumes" cure though

[Dandelion10]

Can't people just answer the question instead of debating if there are 'cure-alls'? Obviously we're all different therefore there are no simple solutions but just stick to the point otherwise people are trailing through arguments looking for helpful tips.

* I would add that focusing on your breathing helps to bring the anxiety under control. Kind of obvious but worth remembering as a basic rule to build on.

* Exposure definitely works to stop you caring about embarrassment (if that's your thing) but it's one of the hardest approaches.

* CBT helped drastically reduce self conscious when out and that's a big chunk of what powers SA in the first place.

* Self-help books have done alot for me too, if you just read them the most you'll get is a better understanding of the condition but if you do the exercises you'll begin to put your issues into perspective e.g. I worry about choking all the time but I began to see it for what it really was-inconsequential and not something to fear or limit my life for.

* We all know going out is another positive thing but for a long time I thought going out made me worse, that's not true, I've learned going out and facing things toughens you up. It doesn't necessarily make you any better but it makes you more resilient and less sensitive.

One area I have yet to get a grip on is tension, I hold so much tension in my body it's untrue and I'm hoping sports/yoga will start to loosen me up.

[slrrrrp]

Originally Posted by Alcoyne

I think slrrrp is getting this site mixed up with NHS 24


can't believe I've just sat and read through all that bollocks,..... pfft.
(mods,.. maybe this thread should be in The basement )

hmm,. must try that "paint fumes" cure though

What's bollocks is people making up their own version of my argument and arguing against that; and if you're happy to believe post hoc subjective bollocks, that's up to you.

[VO2]

I get the point your trying to make slrrrrp, but how does the saying go;

'I may not agree with what you say ,but I will defend to the death your right to say it? After that you can state your own opinion about it, sort of thing.

[Johnni]

Whether is it subjective or objective i'm glad ppl post their successes on here and what has made them feel better. If we did'nt then i think this place would be extremely depressing to constantly read stories of people's struggles.
So what if what worked for them may not work for you or other factors may have influenced them getting better. You ain't gonna get better waiting for someone to give you a great way of getting better but you might if you keep trying different things and hopefully some may actually work.