What makes life worth living?

[3stacks]

I struggle to come up reasons with reasons to live, to me it seems (in my opinion which is probably gonna sound stupid lol) that we live in a cold, pointless and completely meaningless universe where our only goal is to survive, pass on our genes, mostly do things we hate, feel some emotions that are just chemical reactions in the brain, distract ourselves from the emptiness of it all and then die. So what makes life worth living? Or maybe a better question is what makes your life personally worth living and where do you find meaning?

[Daniel1984]

Nothing, i sigh everyday i wake up, my existence is point less. Normal people seem to have children to give their lives meaning.

[Utopia]

I honestly feel that people need to make their own meaning for their own lives, the universe is an incredibly complex thing, and to me it is a 'miracle' that life even exists at all - it is a truly a magnificent thing. The complexity of the universe, and in particular the peculiarity and diversity of planet earth is so fascinating to me, there are still many questions left unanswered, but to me we do look like a freak coincidence within an unimaginably vast space of possibilities. It just seems like (maybe to my puny human brain) that there shouldn't be anything at all - and yet there is - in all it's vast pointlessness and complexity, are brains are blessed to appreciate the beauty of it all. It is merely rules and laws, but we have the capacity to understand (to an extent) and influence it.

So that is one way of looking at it, although most likely just an expression (to our minds) of some kind of incredibly complex, yet meaningless process, it is also, to me at least - quite an awe inspiring work of art; of which the diversity and complexity of life is the most surprising, and fascinating.

As for what makes life worth living, really we have to ultimately decide that for ourselves, the universe doesn't owe us any favors but we have been blessed with consciousness by it, and the chances of that seem very slim to my mind, but of course - we don't/can't know everything.

I personally see a lot of immense beauty in things, even though natural selection is (to out minds at least) a very cruel process, there is a beauty to the patterns and relations I see in nature - including human beings and our cities and societies. Things in nature are like a massive, complex, mathematical machine.

My advice to you would be to not dwell on all of this, and instead focus on the meaning in your personal relationships; focus on the things you can control, rather than getting depressed about all the negative aspects of how pointless everything actually is - because this is just a cold hard fact we all have to deal with. Human beings can fly half way across the earth, survive at the polar ice caps for months on end, dive to the deepest oceans, go to the moon and come back; we can instantly communicate with people anywhere on earth at any time, we can move faster than any other animal on earth, in the air, on land and in the sea; we can generate our own electricity to power machines that let us see anything we want when we wan't, we no longer have to hunt animals in the wild, and less than 5% of the population farms animals and crops so efficiently that it can feed everyone and still have a surplus left over. There are so many things that we have achieved that would have seemed impossible, or crazy to our ancestors, yet we've achieved all of these things by working with what we have. The goal is to decide what personally makes you happy and then working with the things you can control to figure out how to make things better. That is what makes us special in the animal kingdom, we are blessed with the human brain - which in itself is so unimaginably complex - it may well be one of the most complex things in the entire universe.

Really stop thinking about things if it depresses you, at least be in awe of it and just get on with the other aspects of life that can bring you happiness - maybe this is starting a family, exploring new places, or just not thinking about things and just enjoy it. I mean we all have our own meanings and desires from life. There are things that make me unhappy and this isn't that big a reason tbh because there is no controlling it, and so the answer would be to stop dwelling on it and work with what may well be your only shot at the highest level of consciousness we know of at this stage - so don't waste it getting down about things you can't control.

[3stacks]

^ Very good post, I appreciate it!

[limey123]

If you believe in the multiverse theory then our existence is not quite so miraculous...it's just a matter of numbers.

[Marco]

^^^Wow! Great post, Utopia.

[Scott83]

Originally Posted by Daniel1984

Nothing, i sigh everyday i wake up, my existence is point less. Normal people seem to have children to give their lives meaning.

Agreed. My partner's friends have young children but I don't see the point. Ultimately aren't they in turn being subjected to the pointless existence? Born, learn, work, retire, die.

[3stacks]

^yep

[lone*star]

Originally Posted by Scott83

Agreed. My partner's friends have young children but I don't see the point. Ultimately aren't they in turn being subjected to the pointless existence? Born, learn, work, retire, die.

But what if the 'learning' part isn't just a one-off event in a sequence of other events, as you seem to suggest? What if the learning (about life) continued throughout?

Could that provide a possible meaning in itself?

[Marco]

Maybe the ultimate purpose of the universe is as a medium for information transfer, nothing more. We, along with everything else, are simply vessels for carrying information. Of course this raises other questions and such a reductionist view is not particularly uplifting, so I would default back to Utopia's answer.

[3stacks]

^Well that's what I've thought of since I like trying to help people (I'm not good at it but I try lol).

[limey123]

^^ I've seen it written or said lots of times that the happiest people tend to be those who are helping others. Or at least they're happier.

[Orwell20]

Originally Posted by Scott83

Agreed. My partner's friends have young children but I don't see the point. Ultimately aren't they in turn being subjected to the pointless existence.

My thoughts exactly. I genuinely believe having children is one of the most selfish, immoral things people do. No one has a child for selfLESS reasons. They have them in order to give their own life meaning. But that child is going to have to go through so much hell just so your life can have meaning. If he is lucky he’ll get a measly 80 years, though the final third will be lived in a state of increasing physical pain and decline - broken hips, sight loss, incontinence and countless other little miseries. He will have to see loved ones die, often in hideous, agonising ways, all the time knowing that one day it will be him. Relationships are really ****ing hard, and usually end in tears. As for work, unless he is lucky it will be stressful and badly paid, boring, and probably involve taking orders from people he doesn’t like. Yes there are upsides. At times life can be great. But let’s be honest, it is short, full of suffering and ends in utter horror. I am actually proud not to have inflicted life on a child.

[LittleMissMouse]

It's the short term things that keep me going. I try not to think long-term because if you'd asked me 5, 10 or 20 years ago where do you see yourself in 5 years time I would have been wrong at every time point. I honestly just get by day to day by focusing on little things that I'm looking forward to, even really pathetic simple things like if I've got steak or chocolate mousse in the fridge to look forward to in the evening or just looking forward to finding out what happens in the next episode of something on TV.

[3stacks]

^if that works for you then that's good! Those things don't sound pathetic either. I wish I could live day to day like that but all my brain does is think think think about everything.

[Scott83]

Originally Posted by Jimmy77

My thoughts exactly. I genuinely believe having children is one of the most selfish, immoral things people do. No one has a child for selfLESS reasons. They have them in order to give their own life meaning. But that child is going to have to go through so much hell just so your life can have meaning. If he is lucky he’ll get a measly 80 years, though the final third will be lived in a state of increasing physical pain and decline - broken hips, sight loss, incontinence and countless other little miseries. He will have to see loved ones die, often in hideous, agonising ways, all the time knowing that one day it will be him. Relationships are really ****ing hard, and usually end in tears. As for work, unless he is lucky it will be stressful and badly paid, boring, and probably involve taking orders from people he doesn’t like. Yes there are upsides. At times life can be great. But let’s be honest, it is short, full of suffering and ends in utter horror. I am actually proud not to have inflicted life on a child.

I agree with that. I don't see the obsession for living longer if it just means you end up in a nursing home, taking endless tablets, feeling lonely and confused.

I suppose most people who decide to have children do so with the intention of making their kids lives better than their own.

[Scott83]

Originally Posted by lone*star

But what if the 'learning' part isn't just a one-off event in a sequence of other events, as you seem to suggest? What if the learning (about life) continued throughout?

Could that provide a possible meaning in itself?

I was referring to the school/university stage of growing up. I guess we are always learning about our lives, but ultimately our memories are stored in our brains which die with us.

Some people do find meaning in the constant quest for knowledge though.

[Schmosby]

Nonograms

[Seagull]

Peanut butter Lion Bars. Put them in the freezer 2 hours before consuming and you’ve got the perfect SA cure (trust me implicitly on that; you’ll never need prescription meds again).

[3stacks]

^^ those are no, no grams

^ does it specifically have to be the peanut ones?

[lone*star]

Originally Posted by Scott83

I guess we are always learning about our lives, but ultimately our memories are stored in our brains which die with us.

That's an interesting idea - that our memories are stored in our brains. Well, they're obviously stored somewhere, but we don't yet know where! I personally suspect that our brains are merely receivers (a bit like television receivers) which retrieve and process the available information (in the form of memories, for example) rather than physically store them inside itself. The information/memories could therefore be said to be stored in "consciousness" as opposed to the physical brain itself - but, as I said, our clever scientists don't yet know quite how this works - it's a big mystery!

The point being, that if we don't know the answers to such questions (and perhaps even never will) does it not make sense therefore to at least see things in such a way as to be beneficial; especially to oneself (in terms of one's overall contentment with life) but also to others and to life in general? In other words, I'm wondering whether your obvious materialistic/reductionist core beliefs about life might have a direct influence upon your perception of life as a whole; and not necessarily in a positively beneficial way - for example, you previously referred (above) to this 'pointless existence' - which presumably, isn't a good thing?

So I'm saying, could it be that your current perception of this 'pointless existence' stems directly from your pre-existing core beliefs about life/existence itself? And if so, is that what you really want? Do you actually want life to be pointless for some reason? Does that situation just happen to suit you somehow as an individual perhaps? In which case, that might explain your current chosen core beliefs. And of course, it could even be that those beliefs are not pre-existing, but rather in fact the result of 'what you want' as a person - so that you have simply adopted these particular beliefs (from amongst those available) to suit yourself; or at least, to suit who/what you take yourself to be.

[3stacks]

^ I don't think we have any reason to assume they're stored anywhere other than the brain but even if they were how would that give anything meaning? It would still feel pointless lol

[lone*star]

Originally Posted by 3stacks

^ I don't think we have any reason to assume they're stored anywhere other than the brain...

Well for starters, how about the fact that there's no scientific evidence in support of your claim? And I'm afraid there are many examples such as this, where the vast majority of people have somehow convinced themselves that things in life are a certain way, even though there's no evidence (scientific or otherwise) to back up their beliefs. I guess it's a case of these belief systems having somehow become so widespread and commonly accepted over time, that they simply must be true! And, of course, you're then seen as some kind of dubious troublemaker if you have the cheek to 'upset the apple cart' by questioning the established status quo. And so, "Of course our memories are stored inside our brains!" Err, why? "Because that is what everyone believes!"

... but even if they were how would that give anything meaning? It would still feel pointless lol

But how do you know that? It's a bit like someone who's never had a partner before and been single their whole life saying, I already know how it would feel to have an intimate, loving partner in my life - things would still feel pointless, and so there's no point in even going there. Well, you just don't know! Some things you have to actually experience in life for yourself before you can really say. And I'm suggesting this is one of those things!

[AireleeBray]

doesn't the worth & meaning vary from person to person?

I haven't found my true meaning & purpose yet. so far I guess it's supporting my family.
In the future I would like to help people in need, donate to food banks regularly & do charity runs.
I want to be more helpful in the world.

I like to think that my life, memories etc aren't pointless. I like to think we take the good parts with us in the next life (whatever that is)

Now I'm older & ive seen family members go through cancer, dementia, strokes & ive seen my dad lose his parents i do feel terrible that one day my children will go through it too. & to be honest I'm scared of the future.

But we can make happy memories for ourselves to talk about & remember when we can no longer do them. We can try to give people we care about fond memories of us when we are gone.

Maybe in the end it is all pointless, but would that frame of mind make it better?
I hope when I'm at my end I can close my eyes & remember & imagine alot of good ive had in my life.

[Scott83]

Originally Posted by lone*star

That's an interesting idea - that our memories are stored in our brains. Well, they're obviously stored somewhere, but we don't yet know where! I personally suspect that our brains are merely receivers (a bit like television receivers) which retrieve and process the available information (in the form of memories, for example) rather than physically store them inside itself. The information/memories could therefore be said to be stored in "consciousness" as opposed to the physical brain itself - but, as I said, our clever scientists don't yet know quite how this works - it's a big mystery!

I have pondered at times as to whether are bodies are merely vessels that carry not souls but transient fragments of some more intelligent higher force. Not a god, rather a force like gravity. We see and experience it's effect rather than itself. Perhaps all intelligent life is part of this higher consciousness, with the ultimate goal being to escape this universe? In this scenario we are merely one of the millions of evolutionary steps required to reach that end goal.

Originally Posted by lone*star

The point being, that if we don't know the answers to such questions (and perhaps even never will) does it not make sense therefore to at least see things in such a way as to be beneficial; especially to oneself (in terms of one's overall contentment with life) but also to others and to life in general? In other words, I'm wondering whether your obvious materialistic/reductionist core beliefs about life might have a direct influence upon your perception of life as a whole; and not necessarily in a positively beneficial way - for example, you previously referred (above) to this 'pointless existence' - which presumably, isn't a good thing?

So I'm saying, could it be that your current perception of this 'pointless existence' stems directly from your pre-existing core beliefs about life/existence itself? And if so, is that what you really want? Do you actually want life to be pointless for some reason? Does that situation just happen to suit you somehow as an individual perhaps? In which case, that might explain your current chosen core beliefs. And of course, it could even be that those beliefs are not pre-existing, but rather in fact the result of 'what you want' as a person - so that you have simply adopted these particular beliefs (from amongst those available) to suit yourself; or at least, to suit who/what you take yourself to be.

I don't consider myself to be materialistic, I could quite happily give everything away and go live alone on some South Pacific island drinking coconut milk and eating kelp, nothing would give me a greater sense of inner peace. Not sure why you think I want life to be pointless, I really would love to feel as though it all mattered.

My opinion is one born of observation and scientific belief. Science says we are a collection of atoms, governed by chemical reactions. Human existence is merely a tick on the cosmological clock of the universe which existed before us and will continue to exist beyond the end of human life.

Of course science doesn't hold all the facts, and there are questions we will likely never know the answer to. So our assumptions on the purpose of life are merely opinion, nobody can say for sure whether there is a purpose or not.

[lone*star]

Originally Posted by Scott83

Perhaps all intelligent life is part of this higher consciousness, with the ultimate goal being to escape this universe?

Not only intelligent life, but I see everything - every single atom in the entire universe - as being the outward expression of a single infinite intelligence/consciousness. In other words, space and universal consciousness are both exactly the same thing - just opposite sides of the same coin - space being the (outer) unchanging background of existence, and consciousness being the (inner) unchanging background of experience. Each containing and reflecting the other simultaneously.

When the above realisation suddenly came to me, a few years ago, I literally had to go and lie down; the impact it had on me was so profound. So as I was trying to explain to you earlier, the way we perceive things can be life changing in itself - so be careful as to what personal beliefs you are harbouring - they matter more than you think!

As far as the 'ultimate goal' of this intelligence/consciousness is concerned, obviously we can't say for certain. You see, if this thing is infinite, then it must be appearing on many different levels of reality all at once. So it could well be that, at the very highest level, there's actually no goal at all - that the 'goals' only start appearing further down the various levels - for example, on the level of human thought. In which case, ultimately, everything is simply happening and unfolding of its own accord - naturally, spontaneously and inevitably. And yet we humans, of course, think that it's all about us - that we are the vital cog at the very centre, controlling everything!

I don't consider myself to be materialistic, I could quite happily give everything away and go live alone on some South Pacific island drinking coconut milk and eating kelp, nothing would give me a greater sense of inner peace. Not sure why you think I want life to be pointless, I really would love to feel as though it all mattered.

'Materialistic' has two different meanings - and I was referring to the other one - material not in terms of money and possessions, but material in terms of the belief of everything in existence being made of stuff called 'physical matter'. However, your latest post (above) suggests that might not be the case after all, which is encouraging.

My opinion is one born of observation and scientific belief. Science says we are a collection of atoms, governed by chemical reactions. Human existence is merely a tick on the cosmological clock of the universe which existed before us and will continue to exist beyond the end of human life.

By all means listen to what science has to say (although scientists often can't agree on things) but I'd give more importance to your own observations and experiences in life; in order to develop inner wisdom and understanding. Basically, keep watching, listening and learning - everything, and everyone, has something to teach us - but only if we're open and available to learn from it!

Of course science doesn't hold all the facts, and there are questions we will likely never know the answer to. So our assumptions on the purpose of life are merely opinion, nobody can say for sure whether there is a purpose or not.

Yes, which is pretty much what I was saying before - be careful what you believe - because it can have subtle and unrecognised knock-on consequences further down the line for you.

[Scott83]

Originally Posted by lone*star

Not only intelligent life, but I see everything - every single atom in the entire universe - as being the outward expression of a single infinite intelligence/consciousness. In other words, space and universal consciousness are both exactly the same thing - just opposite sides of the same coin - space being the (outer) unchanging background of existence, and consciousness being the (inner) unchanging background of experience. Each containing and reflecting the other simultaneously.

When the above realisation suddenly came to me, a few years ago, I literally had to go and lie down; the impact it had on me was so profound. So as I was trying to explain to you earlier, the way we perceive things can be life changing in itself - so be careful as to what personal beliefs you are harbouring - they matter more than you think!

As far as the 'ultimate goal' of this intelligence/consciousness is concerned, obviously we can't say for certain. You see, if this thing is infinite, then it must be appearing on many different levels of reality all at once. So it could well be that, at the very highest level, there's actually no goal at all - that the 'goals' only start appearing further down the various levels - for example, on the level of human thought. In which case, ultimately, everything is simply happening and unfolding of its own accord - naturally, spontaneously and inevitably. And yet we humans, of course, think that it's all about us - that we are the vital cog at the very centre, controlling everything!




'Materialistic' has two different meanings - and I was referring to the other one - material not in terms of money and possessions, but material in terms of the belief of everything in existence being made of stuff called 'physical matter'. However, your latest post (above) suggests that might not be the case after all, which is encouraging.




By all means listen to what science has to say (although scientists often can't agree on things) but I'd give more importance to your own observations and experiences in life; in order to develop inner wisdom and understanding. Basically, keep watching, listening and learning - everything, and everyone, has something to teach us - but only if we're open and available to learn from it!




Yes, which is pretty much what I was saying before - be careful what you believe - because it can have subtle and unrecognised knock-on consequences further down the line for you.

I do believe that there must be some reason that the universe exists. Life as we know it may be purely a consequence of the perfect conditions, after all where earth too cold or too hot, it's gravity too strong or weak, then life may never have occurred. However the universe itself must have some reason for being, OK it came to be as a result of the big bang, but why was there a mass of atoms in the first place? I have read scientific theories on this subject but they make my head hurt. They say that it exists because it "nothing" is unstable. If that is the case, then why do these laws themselves exists?

[Moksha]

Originally Posted by Scott83

I do believe that there must be some reason that the universe exists. Life as we know it may be purely a consequence of the perfect conditions, after all where earth too cold or too hot, it's gravity too strong or weak, then life may never have occurred. However the universe itself must have some reason for being, OK it came to be as a result of the big bang, but why was there a mass of atoms in the first place? I have read scientific theories on this subject but they make my head hurt. They say that it exists because it "nothing" is unstable. If that is the case, then why do these laws themselves exists?

I once slogged my way through Hawking's Brief History of Time (skipping great chunks and barely understanding the bits I did read). Still, even I, with the mathematical skills of an eight year old, was struck by how little we really know. In the conclusion, Hawking himself says that the Universe remains a mystery. The simple fact that it is there, that there is something rather than nothing, is odd. Everything is odd. How did this meaningless universe, this vast black nothing dotted with swirling gas clouds, planets and stars, this swarming mass of atoms, produce a creature capable of understanding the origins of space and time I mean, how the **** did we get from primordial sludge to Einstein's brain? Could it be that the universe itself is somehow striving or yearning to understand itself? To achieve some kind of self-awareness? If you read a load of wikiquotes by the great physicists, people like Feynman, for example, you realize that they too are baffled and perplexed.

I doubt there is a kind or loving God. In fact, an evil, psycopathic sadist would make more sense (then again, the God of the Old Testament is pretty much an evil psychopath). I also find it hard to believe that the Universe knows we are here or cares. It certainly doesn't care about me as an individual. But Lone Star's belief in a kind of universal consciousness... well, I don't see why not. I have always felt that there could be more, that behind all the noise and chaos of matter and thought there is something empty and serene, a kind of fundamental awareness. I am sure we can each transcend the ego, that this can be helped by certain plants (Ayahuasca, for example), and that people have recorded the experience through the centuries (Huxley's Perennial Philosophy).

The existence of psychedelic plants is another weird fact. There are plants growing naturally that, when eaten, seem to induce a transcendent state. It really is as if nature is offering us an escape. I have heard very intelligent people, people whose opinion I respect, talk about these psychedelic plants with total reverence.

The 'materialist' model is often presented as the sane, sensible view, and yet to me it sounds just as weird and bizarre as the ramblings of any stoned hippy. So there is nothing, no time or space, then, 13 billion years ago, a sudden expansion takes place. We go from nothing (a singularity point??) to an expanding universe made up of vast tracts of nothing dotted with islands of swirling matter called galaxies. So far as we know, this unimaginably vast universe is completely dead, except for one tiny speck of dust, one small planet orbitting one of the billions of stars in one of the billions of galaxies (each containing billions of stars of their own). On this particular ball of rock, somehow, from rock and water we got living things. We went from geology to biology WTF? How?? And out of that process, a completely blind, meaningless process, we got Darwin and Newton and Einstein and countless other beings who pieced together the whole thing and explained how the universe and life got here.

[Moksha]

Originally Posted by lone*star

Not only intelligent life, but I see everything - every single atom in the entire universe - as being the outward expression of a single infinite intelligence/consciousness. In other words, space and universal consciousness are both exactly the same thing - just opposite sides of the same coin - space being the (outer) unchanging background of existence, and consciousness being the (inner) unchanging background of experience. Each containing and reflecting the other simultaneously.

Joseph Campbell once said that consciousness and energy were really two sides of the same coin. If matter (or mass) is a form of energy, if, in other words, hard, solid, stable matter is an illusion and everything is really energy, and if Campbell is right, then everything is this energy-consciousness experiencing itself subjectively. But that experience is a delusion, a prison. Is this energy-consciousness striving to be free of that delusion? Is it striving to attain self-consciousness? Is everything consciousness striving to be conscious that it is conscious? Christ I feel ill...

[Copernicium]

You need a human brain for consciousness. Or debatably a chimp or dolphin brain, although I'm not sure how their consciousness compares to ours. But in each case, as Feynman said, because we are made of atoms, we are the universe trying to make sense of itself. It's us.