Reaching Your 40s and Giving Up

[Moksha]

Did anyone else find themselves giving up once they reached their late 30s/early 40s? I'm 41 and it all just feels hopeless. Looking back over my life (and this has taken me a long time to work out), I realize that I developed an avoidant personality disorder in my early teens, though I suspect the foundations were laid earlier. I was also filled with shame. And the two fed each other ***8211; I avoided parties, relationships, work, etc, which made me feel ashamed, and because I felt ashamed I avoided people even more. By my late teens I was a dysfunctional mess.

For 30 years I have lived with social anxiety and avoidance, plus the shame they created. And everything I did was an attempt to free myself from that prison. But I just couldn't. I still live at home and, apart from a brief spell living in Cambridge as a student (no more than a couple of weeks), I have always lived at home. I've done odd jobs here and there (delivering the yellow pages, working online as a freelance writer, etc) but never had a 'real' one. I managed to get a couple of literature degrees from the local university (while skipping seminars, speaking to no one ***8211; the usual stuff), but they are worthless unless you want to be a teacher. And as for sex and relationships, that has mostly been hopeless. I had my first sexual experience with an escort at 16 or 17. A stupid mistake, but I was so ***ing lonely and confused I sort of stumbled into it. In my 30s I did a lot of internet dating, though I usually lied to my parents about where I was going (part of that pattern of avoidance, secrecy and shame that has characterized my life), but depression and anxiety caused a lot of sexual dysfunction. I did meet some interesting women, but I avoided anyone I really liked. Now I can't even be bothered to date. And I avoid all the neighbors (who regard me as a freak) because of shame.

The sad thing is, now, at last I feel I understand myself much better. Personality disorders, so I've read, ease off as you reach your mid-30s, and that has been my experience exactly. But I've sort of given up. Throughout my teens and twenties I yearned to get away from home. I was so filled with shame that I dreamed of proving myself somehow: teaching English in Nepal, doing an MA in London, backpacking around Europe, etc. But I was paralyzed with social anxiety. And I couldn't move out because I couldn't face working in an office, which meant no money. I also had nowhere to go ***8211; no older sibling or relation who could throw me a lifeline. But all these dreams, I realize now, were just ways of escaping shame. And at 41 it all feels too late. No matter what I do now I have the weight of my past around my neck ***8211; all those wasted years, all that pain and shame and regret. I do feel I could maybe hold down some kind of job now, and even move into a flat of my own. But this relief has come too late. I have an aging mother to look after. My dad died when I was 31, and my mother never really recovered. She is on anti-depressants and not in great shape. She is also getting old. I feel like I couldn't leave her even if I could find a job. And even if I could find a job I would just end up in some tiny little rat hole of a flat. At 19 or 25 it would have meant everything to me. My confidence would have soared and my shame would have massively reduced. But at 41 it just seems lonely, scary and pointless. The alternative is to basically stay here and look after my mother until she dies, consumed with shame, avoidance, loneliness and regret.

Once you reach your 40s, you begin to lose energy. The world no longer seems an interesting and enticing place but dreary and pointless. I was desperately unhappy when young, but at least I had hope. Life was all in front of me and I felt that things would work out ***8211; eventually. That has long gone. Time is speeding up, and I feel like I'm hurtling towards some kind of disaster.

[Mr. Nobody]

Oddly enough, my 40's where when I came across this place and started getting help,
I started meeting more people, getting out and going to meets,
Have met loads of really cool people from here and eventually managed to get into dating too,
I did manage to find my way into some really good counselling too, which helped a lot,

It really is never too late to turn things around, well that's been my experience anyway.

I know people in their 90's that are still up for having a laugh, trying new things and and enjoying life,
It really is never too late, or time to give up it seems.

[Marco]

I can***8217;t offer much help here, but I really sympathise and I do understand that horrible cycle of anxiety, avoidance, shame and depression. It is a dreadful vicious circle that often leads to utter despair. However, even at 41 it***8217;s far from too late to do something about your situation. Really, you must believe this! It sounds like you have a lot to give. You come across as a very thoughtful and intelligent, caring bloke and probably a lot more resourceful than you realise. I changed my career (admittedly to a much lower paid job with far less stress) and got married in my forties (which was nothing short of a miracle!), and overall things have greatly improved for me since then. I would advise you seek counselling; maybe best start with your GP first. Please don***8217;t give up on yourself!

Jinny ***8211; do you know what happened to Ajax Amsterdam? I really miss his posts! I hope he***8217;s OK.

[Moksha]

Originally Posted by jinny

The things that you talk about achieving wouldn't necessarily bring you joy or happiness. I am sorry if I am off the mark, but you remind me of myself in the past where I always felt that if I could 'be' something successful it would solve my problems, but that was because I was brought up in a critical environment where people had high expectations. I was praised for achievements, not loved for being myself.
I would guess that you never had 'unconditional' love.

You deserve to be happy and to not feel ashamed, I can't see any actual reason for you to carry feelings of shame, it sounds like toxic shame to me.

Yes, you are spot on with the phrase "toxic shame" Jinny. It took me a long time to identify this. For years I knew I had problems socializing, and I was aware that I suffered from anxiety. Gradually, I realized that it was more than social anxiety and was in fact a full-blown avoidant personality disorder. Only in the last year or so have I understood the massive role shame has played. I suspect that is true for lots of people with mental health problems. The anxiety, depression, OCD, intrusive thoughts, whatever it may be, holds you back: people don't socialize, leave home, get a sex life, and so on, and that then fills them with shame. The shame in turn feeds the mental illness.

Sorry you had that sort of childhood. My parents were great in many ways – loving, loyal, etc. But the family itself was a bit too close and intense. My dad had had a miserable, loveless childhood and, when he got a child of his own, he just suffocated him (i.e me!). He was so needy, intrusive and overbearing that I think he literally drove me insane. As someone once said, we all dump our traumas onto our children, and that's what happened with me. Basically, I was socially uncomfortable from the start, wasn't properly socialized, and so on. But I was getting these messages from my dad – you will have lots of girlfriends, you'll get into scrapes...oh I can't wait. And even at nine or ten I was freaking out about all this. I sort of knew that I wasn't going to be able to do what was expected. So right from the start I was consumed with shame. In your case it sounds like your parents expected career or academic success(?). In my case, my father had zero interest in education. All he wanted was a son who'd go to parties, get into fights and ask him for advice about girls. What he got was a dysfunctional mess who went into a kind of shutdown. And I have lived with toxic, crippling shame for 30 years. It explains pretty much everything I've ever done. For example, I had several experiences with escorts when I was still very young (16 or 17) because I wanted to 'lose it' while still a teen. But it had nothing to do with lust; it was an attempt to escape shame (when in fact, of course, it simply deepened my shame).

[Moksha]

Originally Posted by Marco

I can’t offer much help here, but I really sympathise and I do understand that horrible cycle of anxiety, avoidance, shame and depression. It is a dreadful vicious circle that often leads to utter despair. .

Yes, a cycle...that's spot on. The shame feeds the avoidance and the avoidance feeds the shame. I think I'll put up a thread about it. I've been on and off this site for ten years, but only recently have I seen the key role shame plays.

[Sisyphus]

^Spooky.

That was almost exactly what I was about to type, right down to the last question.

Keep going Moksha, climbing out is better than digging deeper.

[Copernicium]

Originally Posted by Moksha

Once you reach your 40s, you begin to lose energy.

You lose a bit of energy in your 40s but it's not like you're in your 70s or 80s.

The world no longer seems an interesting and enticing place but dreary and pointless. I was desperately unhappy when young, but at least I had hope. Life was all in front of me and I felt that things would work out ***8211; eventually. That has long gone. Time is speeding up, and I feel like I'm hurtling towards some kind of disaster.

We're all hurtling towards a disaster and it's called death, but there is no point dwelling on it. Look, I'll just give my immediate reaction to one key point in your post.

Your mum. You say her health is not great and she's getting old. From personal family experience I can say that old people in poor health tend to get worse rather than better and usually develop unexpected new health problems to go with their existing old ones until eventually you have to start thinking about whether they need 24 hour care. That's if they don't die first. So however hard it is I would try to start thinking about how to make a life without her in it and what that life would look like. That doesn't mean immediately yelling "bye, mum" and marching out the front door with your suitcase. But perhaps really start looking towards getting that job you talk about. Terrifying perhaps, but then so are most things worth going after. The point is to start focussing on things that are outside your mum and the house, because otherwise your life will be solely focussed on looking after her until suddenly you aren't looking after her anymore and you're not 41 but 51 or 55 or 60. Start preparing for that now, however small and incremental that preparation is, because, well, basically you need to.

And stop focussing on the past so much. It's gone, it's history, you've got more important things to think about.

If the above all sounds a bit blunt, it's not meant to be. It's just from the perspective of someone who watched his own parents health deteriorate some years ago.

[gregarious_introvert]

One of the reasons that I'm still here is, I hope, to show that it is never too late to change one's life; admittedly, Moksha, my first forty years were a little more eventful than yours (although you shouldn't play down your achievements in getting those literature degrees, which will have been more difficult given your propensity for avoidance). I was able to work, even if the longest I was able to hold a job was two years and in the end my chequered work record resulted in ever-decreasing opportunity to find new jobs - and also, thanks to "lonely hearts" advertisements and later, internet dating, I was able to have relationships, although like the jobs, these didn't tend to last. I moved out of home when I was 18 and have been living independently ever since.

I had no social life at all until I was in my 50s; it wasn't so much avoidance as what I felt was a lack of opportunity - even when I was working, I would be the one not invited on social occasions! I did try joining social groups but found myself rejected, so lived in virtual isolation for most of those 50 years. When I was just short of 40, my mother died so I moved house to be closer to my father and cared for him during the last decade of his life.

It was two years after my father died, following a disastrous relationship and traumatic break-up, that I discovered SAUK; I had recently moved to a new area, in which I felt completely isolated and alone, resulting in becoming agoraphobic. Since then (I was 51 at the time), I met someone through this very forum (the relationship lasted four years), have become involved in meetup (through which I met my current partner of six months) and begun travelling (my partner and I have just returned from Latvia, which was my ninth trip abroad this year); I've even formed friendships for the first time in my life! Although things are still far from perfect, I am enjoying the best times of my life and probably appreciating them all the more because of the difficulties I have experienced in the previous five decades.


Moksha, you say that you have a much better understanding of yourself now, which is a good basis on which to build; whatever it takes to lose that toxic shame, you need to realise that there is no reason for that shame. There is no point in comparing yourself to others who have not experienced the difficulties and barriers which you have had to face, the only valid comparison is to your former self - give yourself credit for what you have achieved rather than shame for what you (perceive that you) haven't.

As others have stated in posts above (particularly the three immediately preceding this one), there is nothing you can do to change the past, but you can change the present and the future; fretting about what you've missed can only be counter-productive and you still have plenty of time to build a life which you will find fulfilling. It's a cliché to say that today is the first day of the rest of your life, but it really is and we can start anew at any time; keep looking forward, setting yourself manageable goals and not looking back, it's amazing what can be achieved. Of course, there will be setbacks along the way, there will be times when you feel as if you're making little or no progress, there will be times when you're unhappy with yourself because you allow old habits to re-emerge, but you can keep moving forward to a point where you are happy, or at least content, with your life.

[MoshiMoshi]

Moksha, do you have interests or hobbies that give you pleasure/fulfillment?

Getting married and having kids is really overrated, I think it's far better to turn your mind to things that do give you pleasure and make you feel better about life.

Tying yourself in knots by always analyzing what you've accomplished or not accomplished is a recipe for unhappiness and a load of old bollocks when all's said and done - we're only here for a short time, just try enjoy it.

Who gives a shit if you didn't meet someone or end up with your dream job? Neither of those are weird these days, millions of people in the world are in the same boat.

40 is not old or even close.

[Moksha]

Thanks for the repiles everyone. I know my post sounds a bit odd, maybe even self-pitying, but I didn't mean it to be. I'm aware that plenty have it worse (indeed, I've met a couple from this very forum). I guess like most people with mental health problems I live in the confused tangle of my own head. To those on the outside much of what I say makes no sense, or they just think "what's the problem?"

Shame is a big, big thing for me and has fueled much of my avoidance. If I could rid myself of that shame, it would be like jumping the wall of a prison that has held me for 30 ****ing years. Unfortunately, living in the family home is a part of that shame. Now, with an aging mother, there seems little prospect of escaping. We all carry around 'My Story' in our heads, don't we. For some, it is a source of smugness and pride, for others it means trauma, agony, regret, etc. For me, again, it is a source of shame.

Another problem is of course isolation. For the last two years I've been working for a guy who runs a health and psychology website. I supplied him with articles and managed to save over £10,000 (at last I can afford that cardboard box in the High Street). Now he has pulled the plug. In a way I'm kind of relieved. It consumed all my time and energy, and for two years I've had no social life at all, apart from an old school friend who lives nearby. During those two years I hit my 40s and kind of felt like "oh, f*** it, I can't be bothered to date or meet new people or do anything. What's the point anyway? The whole thing has just been a mess. Nothing can wipe away the humiliating grime of those years, etc." Not a healthy way to think I know, but difficult to break out of. I need to kind of force myself back into the world. I do think that the right person could make a big difference. When you don't socialize or date, your whole emotional life kind of goes into a numb shutdown and you forget how good it can be to be with the right people.

Ideally, I'd love to get away from everyone and everything and start again. I was listening to a podcast the other day on which they discussed psychedelic plants. One guest said that it's like going to a new land, where you take off your old personality, or 'story,' and leave it at the door. When the drug wears off, you realize that your old self/old identity/old story was just a construct, one you can choose to put back on or not ***8211; like an old coat. I often think that that would work wonders for me. To leave this Essex village and move to a hippy commune in Devon or Scotland, take Mescaline and try rewiring my brain. If they could chuck in a bit of regenerative medicine to make me look and feel 25 again, that would be much appreciated.

[MoshiMoshi]

The problem with the world is that the intelligent people are full of doubts, while the stupid ones are full of confidence. - Bukowski.

[Moksha]

Originally Posted by MoshiMoshi

Moksha, do you have interests or hobbies that give you pleasure/fulfillment?

Getting married and having kids is really overrated, I think it's far better to turn your mind to things that do give you pleasure and make you feel better about life.

.

I know what you mean Moshi. The only thing I ever loved or cared about was art and literature. I was hopeless at everything else (hated maths and sport, can't understand technology, don't care about politics, etc). I spend most of my time working through Harold Bloom's canon of great books, ticking them off as I go (right now I'm reading Clive James' translation of The Divine Comedy. Pretentious? You have no idea!). Language, poetry, novels, art galleries – and maybe alkihol and drugs – those are the things I love. And I love arty bohemians and hippies. I love people who dye their hair green, pierce their nose and don't give a ***k about anything. God, it would be lovely to have a friend who shared those interests. I did once meet a girl who was a bit like that – I even went to see King Lear with her at the Donmar theatre. She was so (and I hate this word) cool – the sort of person who watches a Shakespeare play in the afternoon then takes coke at a party in the evening. I'd never met anyone like her (I'm from a small village, while she was a hip Londoner). She really opened my eyes to a whole new world. Sadly, she wanted a proper relationship and I didn't (no physical attraction on my part). We used to meet at a town midway and get drunk – then I'd drive her home (after downing two bottles of wine! How the hell I never had an accident I don't know). At heart I'm an aesthete and bohemian, but without any talent or courage .

The whole marriage, kids, mortgage thing probably is overrated. And this is an interesting point. A lot of people go down that route because they feel it's what they ought to do. And that is especially true in a stifling village like this. I have had sexual partners, and even managed a year long relationship, but I was always distant. I have no kids, no career and no partner. But I'm not sure I regret that. I can't honestly say that I've been unhappy living the relatively isolated, hermetic life I've lived. Would I have been happier if I'd never developed these problems? Maybe. Living without shame would have been wonderful. And I certainly regret never having had good sex or a really happy relationship. But I might have fallen for someone who turned out to be a selfish, uncaring bit*h. Or maybe I'd be struggling with a disabled child, or killing myself to pay a mortgage.

[MoshiMoshi]

Yep - art, literature, music, cats, and comedy/sitcoms. These are what get me through.

Bollocks to all this careers and should-have-accomplished-these things-by-this-age dirge.

Have you sought counselling RE the shame? I think trying that, along with getting out of the family home would be a very good place to start to help you out of this situation.

[Copernicium]

Um, Moksha, I can see from your posts that you're living in the clouds. That's fine, but let's try and drag you back down to reality.

1. What do you want from the next 20 years?
2. How are you going to make it happen?

Oh, and forget the drugs nonsense. the last thing you need is mescaline and a hippy commune.

[MoshiMoshi]

Originally Posted by Copernicium

1. What do you want from the next 20 years?
2. How are you going to make it happen?

This is it, exactly.

[Dougella]

Originally Posted by MoshiMoshi

Yep - art, literature, music, cats, and comedy/sitcoms. These are what get me through.

Bollocks to all this careers and should-have-accomplished-these things-by-this-age dirge.

Have you sought counselling RE the shame? I think trying that, along with getting out of the family home would be a very good place to start to help you out of this situation.

Funnily enough those types of small enjoyments are what keep me going too.

Bollocks indeed. I know of a lot of people who have been extremely unhappy with a career, a marriage and a mortgage and kids. If any of those things really matter to you then by all means try to work towards them but otherwise don't worry!


Small steps is the way to go I think, not trying to think about the next so many years.

[Azalea]

Originally Posted by jinny

Totally agree,

Happiness isn't about achieving things, it's about finding those things you enjoy.

So true, when the kids were younger I just plodded on for their sake and only got help about 5 years ago although I had been on ADs for years.

It's only in the last 18 months that things have improved, sadly I have lost all contact with my 2nd son and 2 grandchildren but the silly games my sons and daughter in law were playing were making me ill.
It's through this site and chatroom that I have finally made some friends and I am so thankful to the person who told me about it.

Things may not be perfect, I still have issues and poor physical health atm but I would never have imagined life beginning at 54 and have been so close to giving up in the past, don't give up, it's never too late.

[Moksha]

Originally Posted by Copernicium

Oh, and forget the drugs nonsense. the last thing you need is mescaline.

Totally disagree. I don't consider things like Mescaline, Ayahuasca etc to be drugs. In fact, from what I've heard and read they would be immensely helpful to people on forums like this. They seem to temporarily dissolve the old self/ego and temporarily free you from old patterns or ruts of thought. When the drug wears off, you realize that you've just been playing a silly, self-destructive game all these years, that it was one identity among many, and that you needn't go back to it. They also allow buried material to surface.

I am a firm believer in psychedelic plants. And I firmly believe that trained therapists should be allowed to administer them (especially in hospices ***8211; they are proven to help reduce the fear of dying). I certainly wouldn't use heroin or coke or anything like that. But it is ****ing insane that a messed up 18-year-old can walk into Tesco and walk out with bags of vodka, cigarettes and sugar, all disgusting poisons that will make her feel worse. If that same girl is caught using a plant like Ayahuasca, however, she'll be up in court!! I fully intend to use such plants at some point in my life ***8211; especially when I'm old.

[Moksha]

[QUOTE=HermannHesse;2407845]

^^^
That doesn't surprise me. Anyone with a username like yours is gonna be open to such things

Is it legal in Amsterdam? I'm not interested in a hedonistic high. For me it's all about healing and liberation. Joe Rogan has some great podcasts about this stuff btw.

[Copernicium]

Originally Posted by Moksha

Totally disagree. I don't consider things like Mescaline, Ayahuasca etc to be drugs. In fact, from what I've heard and read they would be immensely helpful to people on forums like this. They seem to temporarily dissolve the old self/ego and temporarily free you from old patterns or ruts of thought. When the drug wears off, you realize that you've just been playing a silly, self-destructive game all these years, that it was one identity among many, and that you needn't go back to it. They also allow buried material to surface.

I am a firm believer in psychedelic plants. And I firmly believe that trained therapists should be allowed to administer them (especially in hospices ***8211; they are proven to help reduce the fear of dying). I certainly wouldn't use heroin or coke or anything like that. But it is ****ing insane that a messed up 18-year-old can walk into Tesco and walk out with bags of vodka, cigarettes and sugar, all disgusting poisons that will make her feel worse. If that same girl is caught using a plant like Ayahuasca, however, she'll be up in court!! I fully intend to use such plants at some point in my life ***8211; especially when I'm old.

Sorry, I disagree. Hallucinogenic drugs are the last thing people with mental health problems need. If you want to talk to some seriously messed up people go and talk to some acid casualties. That'll give you something to feel depressed about. At best hallucinogenic drugs give people a lot of boring, time-wasting ideas that they wrongly think are profound because they spent 8 hours staring at the sky imagining they were communing with the universe, which is tedious beyond words for everyone who subsequently has to listen to their nonsense, but more likely someone with mental health problems will be so freaked out that they need professional help. I can't think of anything less sensible for someone with mental health problems to do than take hallucinogenic drugs.

And you are wasting your time considering this rubbish when you have more pressing things to think about. I feel like throwing my hands up in despair and sighing.

[Dougella]

^ There have been studies, and more are emerging, that psychodelic drugs can be very helpful for people with PTSD and depression. In the future it will probably be prescribed as a treatment under medical supervision. Have a look into it.

[Dougella]

[QUOTE=Moksha;2407846]

Originally Posted by HermannHesse

^^^
That doesn't surprise me. Anyone with a username like yours is gonna be open to such things

Is it legal in Amsterdam? I'm not interested in a hedonistic high. For me it's all about healing and liberation. Joe Rogan has some great podcasts about this stuff btw.

Good old Joe Rogan

[Copernicium]

Originally Posted by Dougella

^ There have been studies, and more are emerging, that psychodelic drugs can be very helpful for people with PTSD and depression. In the future it will probably be prescribed as a treatment under medical supervision. Have a look into it.

I've heard about it but I can't see it ever being medically prescribed, for many reason, not least of which is getting a normal drug through testing takes years and is a very long shot. Getting psychedelics through would be even more difficult.

But that isn't what annoys me. Anyone who has ever known people from the drug culture will be aware of at least one person whose mental health problems have been exacerbated by psychedelics. That's the bottom line.

And it's often those who shouldn't be messing with psychedelics who find the idea of them most attractive. Listen to this from Moksha:

They seem to temporarily dissolve the old self/ego and temporarily free you from old patterns or ruts of thought. When the drug wears off, you realize that you've just been playing a silly, self-destructive game all these years, that it was one identity among many, and that you needn't go back to it. They also allow buried material to surface.

He thinks that sounds brilliant. I don't. He doesn't even know what dissolving the ego means, but he thinks it sounds cool. This is as annoying to me as his determination that mescaline or whatever is beneficial. He thinks the whole thing is exciting and groovy and will open up new parts of his mind and blah blah blah.

Well, part of me thinks, go ahead then, but don't come crying back here when you don't get what you expected.

[Dougella]

^ It depends what you mean by a normal drug. A lot of the drugs regularly prescribed already have very serious side effects and can be potentially fatal.



It sounds like a long shot but actually what Moksha describes is the experience that a lot of people have had when taking psychodelics, which is why there's a lot of potential for people with PTSD to be helped. It doesn't really matter whether the idea is annoying to you, what matters is the evidence that people can be helped hugely by these drugs. Now personally I'd be too scared to try anything like that without being supervised by doctors, but that's just me.

[Copernicium]

Originally Posted by Dougella

^ It depends what you mean by a normal drug. A lot of the drugs regularly prescribed already have very serious side effects and can be potentially fatal.

I would hazard a guess that those drugs aren't prescribed for mental health problems, although it might make for an interesting chat with the doctor:

"This is kill or cure, Ms Dougella, what do you say?"

[Dougella]

^ Lithium? Anti-depressants? Anti-psychotics? Have you ever read the leaflet in a packet of anti-depressants, it is alarming to see that one of the possible side effects is death.

[Copernicium]

Originally Posted by Dougella

^ Lithium? Anti-depressants? Anti-psychotics? Have you ever read the leaflet in a packet of anti-depressants, it is alarming to see that one of the possible side effects is death.

That will cheer up everyone on lithium.

[Marco]

^^Lol. I totally agree with Copernicium. That***8217;s not really a good argument, Dougella. At least these drugs you mention have undergone clinical evaluation and are only available as licensed medicines that are given under medical supervision. Clinicians have a far better understanding of their pharmacology, side effects, drug interactions, what to monitor and so on. Of course all drugs are potentially harmful, even lethal - we all know that. Drinking too much water can be fatal. The truth is though, far less is known about mind altering psychedelic drugs than licensed medicines. Their putative beneficial effects in conditions like PTSD are still to be demonstrated in clinical studies and properly controlled randomised clinical trials. For now, it***8217;s simply playing with fire to dabble in these substances! Far better to take up exercise and experience the natural highs produced by the body***8217;s own opioids.

[Dougella]

^ As I understand it people have to be very closely monitored on it, and a lot of other types of drugs. But of course the positives outway the risks.

[Dougella]

Originally Posted by Marco

^^Lol. I totally agree with Copernicium. That’s not really a good argument, Dougella. At least these drugs you mention have undergone clinical evaluation and are only available as licensed medicines that are given under medical supervision. Clinicians have a far better understanding of their pharmacology, side effects, drug interactions, what to monitor and so on. Of course all drugs are potentially harmful, even lethal - we all know that. Drinking too much water can be fatal. The truth is though, far less is known about mind altering psychedelic drugs than licensed medicines. Their putative beneficial effects in conditions like PTSD are still to be demonstrated in clinical studies and properly controlled randomised clinical trials. For now, it’s simply playing with fire to dabble in these substances! Far better to take up exercise and experience the natural highs produced by the body’s own opioids.

Obviously psychodelics drugs would need to be trialled and evaluated before being prescribed. I'm not advocating a free for all, I'm saying possible benefits are worth being investigated.