What do you want out of life?

[Indigo_]

^ I completely agree. I went through a period of time where I thought life owed me due to downright shitty previous experiences. Life owes no one nothing.

[Dougella]

^^^^ Who has told you you're not allowed to have a relationship?

There have been many people here who didn't have a relationship until they were in their 30s or later, you're not alone by any means.

[Sphinx]

I think it's very common to think, if only I had X then I could finally be happy. Whatever it is that you don't have. I don't have all of the answers by any means, but it doesn't help comparing yourself to others, even if it seems like the whole world has that thing and you don't. You have to focus on your own journey, and making improvements in your life gradually.

Anxiety has always held me back the most in employment, it's something I find very difficult to cope with. I would like a job that I could enjoy and give me some kind of purpose in life.

I don't want to be a completely different person, but I wish I could just connect with people without being crippled by anxiety. It would be nice to have a small circle of friends in my life to share experiences with. I feel very comfortable with being alone, but sometimes you just need other people to be there for you.

I would love just a simple, calm life, with enough money to have a few pleasures like going on holiday. Doesn't seem like too much to ask for, I hope I get there one day

[Hayman]

Okay, the issue of "life doesn't owe you anything". I knew this would crop up sooner or later! Now***8230;there used to be a time when I was quite offended by that (which I'll explain) but again, it's a comment that has been said so much to me that I just brush it off. It's like water off a ducks back to me***8230; It***8217;s just all part and parcel of dealing with social anxiety and the general lack of understanding/respect of what sufferers are going through. This is why I try and explain myself as best as I possibly can (and why I have a blogsite so I write about most of my experiences as and when they happen).

Here's a few examples of where 'life doesn't owe you anything' has cropped up for me:

Regular Person: "Have you seen the replies I had on Facebook following my birthday?!"
The Reply: "Yeah! You had 132! Well done! You deserve it!"
Me: "No one has commented on my birthday***8230;"
The Reply: "life doesn't owe you anything"


Regular Person: "I'd love another relationship!"
The Reply: "Good luck ***8211; hope you get somewhere quick! I might know someone who'd be interested in you."
Me: (as a dateless virgin): "I'd love a relationship!"
The Reply: "life doesn't owe you anything. Don't feel so entitled"

If life doesn't owe those who have never had anything, then how do you expect the sufferer to react? To suddenly say "Oh okay then***8230; I'll continue to go above and beyond the efforts that everyone else has to without question", finding themselves suddenly brimming with lots of confidence, or would you see them basically give up, curl up and cry that no one is understanding what they're saying. No one understands their pain, their suffering or the fact that no one respects them. Why does all the wonders of life go to certain types of people but those who have conditions such as Social Anxiety and Depression, in my case brought on by not getting anywhere, are expected to not have even a few crumbs of comfort? This is what causes a lot of our problems!

Do you see where I'm coming from***8230;? It gets a bit tiresome after seeing these double standards in replies to the same basic questions/observations for so long. You basically learn to accept no matter what you do, you're going to be 'bashed down' for simply wanting the same basic life experiences as everyone else. We***8217;re told we have to work for them ***8211; but that effort is ignored. Why is it ignored? Well ***8211; we're already stigmatised for being rock bottom and therefore we're expected to stay there ***8211; and you daren't ask for more than the nothing you have. Picture the Oliver Twist "Please sir, can I have some more?" scene***8230; This is why I've referred to things such as romance to being much like freemasonry, now. It's an exclusive little club. Only existing members are allowed to have some and you have to be rather young to stand a chance of joining. It's pointless trying because all you're ever told for 'daring' to want romance is that life doesn't owe us anything ***8211; but it clearly owes those who have already been 'owed' in the past, doesn't it?! What makes us different? What makes the general public respond to us completely differently? What makes clearly makes them more entitled than us and more importantly, are free from ridicule? Don't they see that this is a contributory factor to our mental state? It's a classic 'chicken or the egg' situation. Regular people blame our attitudes for giving us our problems ***8211; rather than seeing the ongoing problems naturally leading us onto the views we have. Rarely have I ever come across acceptance of the second viewpoint. There***8217;s no smoke without fire and sadly, too many people don't see the fire that burns beneath the 'smoke' we give off. Blowing the smoke away won't do anything until that fire, the root cause of the issues, is put out. The smoke will just keep coming back, otherwise***8230;

Again, I need to stress I'm writing this in a constructive frame of mind and absolutely no offence is intended to anyone. I'm not annoyed by comments such as "life doesn't owe you anything". I find it quite amusing, actually. It***8217;s just the negativity that I***8217;m more than used to facing when I try and open up about the problems I face. For many sufferers and myself included, this is why so many people end up with depression, rather not say anything at all and basically withdraw themselves from society as much as they can. I spent almost half of my 20's doing this and subjecting myself to negative/harmful advice from medical professionals who supposedly we're there to help but only wanted me to feel worse about myself ("Everything's your fault")... I got tired of being shouted down that in recent years I've decided to stand up for myself, question these age-old phrases and start speaking in raw but constructive terms, that these problems I (and others) face are real. They shouldn't be undermined and in no way should anyone with Social Anxiety be made to feel even worse about themselves than they already are. Particularly if they're already depressed - as I've been diagnosed with on three separate occasions, now.

Originally Posted by Dougella

^^^^ Who has told you you're not allowed to have a relationship?

There have been many people here who didn't have a relationship until they were in their 30s or later, you're not alone by any means.

Society in general has snubbed me out of having one. It doesn't matter what I do to try and impress - I'm always deemed to be doing something wrong. If I don't do anything it's my fault for not trying enough and when I do try, I'm deemed to be trying too hard and again - it's my fault. I simply cannot win. This could be despite doing exactly the same things as other people - who were very successful, very quickly by doing the same things. As explained above really, if you haven't had a relationship before - you're basically deemed to be asexual or gay. You aren't 'allowed' to enjoy the basic perks others take for granted - as you haven't been able to have one before...

Whilst it's true that there are people out there who end up in their first relationships at my age - how many were still dateless virgins at that point? I would hazard a guess to say it would only be a fraction of them. Most will have had some form of (limited) previous experience. Experience seems to be the 'key' in getting into the freemasonry lodge of romance (no previous experience? You aren't allowed to get any...). Starting right from scratch at my age is highly unusual. We've already long since been written off and therefore purposefully avoided or stigmatised - which again, somehow is deemed to be our fault!

I know I'm certainly not alone out there and if anything, this is becoming a growing issue that still remains out of the spotlight of the mainstream media. Perfectly decent people are now being left behind - all because they don't fit certain standards or expectations.

To say I feel completely let down (and betrayed by certain people) on this specific issue of never being able to have a relationship is probably the understatement of the year! I know in my heart I've done everything I possibly can and pushed myself to the point of almost being physically ill... It still hasn't been anywhere near good enough. It's just something I've got to live with . It's something that people ridicule me over and rather than accepting this basic life progression just isn't going to happen for me and offer some understanding/support, they'd rather make me feel three inches tall instead.

[Dougella]

^ You've seriously been listening to the wrong people. And I think you need to be a little bit careful with your generalisations because there are quite a few people here (who may not post about it) who haven't had any experience and I wouldn't want them to think that people see them in the terms you describe.

Personally for me it wouldn't matter if I met someone who had no previous experience, what would matter to me would be if we got on well together and had similar attitudes towards relationships.

No, people shouldn't be ridiculing you for having no experience and I would suggest not taking any notice of those people.

There is no standard that you have to be to find a relationship, otherwise hardly any of us would ever get into one!

[michelle06]

^ I was going to say something similar, @Dougella.

@Hayman, it sounds like you associate with the wrong kind of people - women who only want rich men for their sperm and 'friends'/ associates who make fun of you for your lack of experience. No one here is likely to make fun of you for your lack of experience and the majority of us can empathise/ have similar issues ourselves and we're all very much part of society, so it isn't the whole of society that has snubbed you. This is supposed to be a forum where we offer each other support and encouragement, but you make it hard to be sympathetic when you dismiss all women as money-grabbing hypergamists and any man who is successful with members of the opposite sex as egotistical!

[Ajax Amsterdam]

Hayman,

I'm always wary of replying to your posts because although I do so with good intentions, I fear that I may come across as victim blaming. Of course, as a recovering/recovered sufferer of SA, depression, self-harming etc my outlook and approach will now be different to that of a person still up to their neck in it. I don't see myself as a victim of anything anymore. I refuse to accept that label for myself.

When we see ourselves as at the mercy of life and everyone else in life, we give them an awful lot of power over us. This also allows us to absolve ourselves of all responsibility for where we are, how we got there and how we get out. We establish a narrative in our own heads that we defend to the hilt, even though our own lived experience tells us that narrative is unhelpful to us. Thing is, clinging to the narrative helps keep us firmly stuck.

The person who is stuck will often resist anything that challenges their established narrative and may be perceived differing outlooks as a lack of understanding and empathy rather than constructive input. I used to have my own unhelpful narrative going on too. I never moved forward an inch in life whilst I clung on to it, though. My fear is that you will remain stuck for as long as you cling to the narrative you defend so resolutely.

I only say this as both a recovered severe SA sufferer myself and as someone who would dearly love you to find the things in life you desire. But what I cannot do is collude with you on here in a way which helps you sink further into the quicksand. By not colluding my replies will appear to contradict your narrative. But it's the narrative at fault here; not you as a person. I don't for a moment dispute the pain of your life experience, though I dispute the workability of your current approach / mindset. Relationships are nothing like the Freemasons. There is no exclusive, elite club. There are just millions of people trying to get by and make a life. It's not about being allocated "perks". We don't have to be perfect. If we did, I'd never have had a friend or partner in my life because for most of it I've been a shambles. And yes, with hindsight I probably did think life owed me something. I probably acted as though it did, too. But facts are, everything I've got now came via hard work, finally owning my own shit, making loads of mistakes, painful rejections, big disappointments, a few betrayals, more than a few kicks in the teeth and lots of periods where I felt like giving up altogether.

Suppose my point is that many of us go through some tough and damaging shit in life. We can be left feeling like we have no control and no hope. Forever at the mercy of others. We can be left feeling disempowered and we can take on the role of a victim of circumstance. We may also feel fully entitled to feel bitter, angry, overlooked etc, and we may find it hard to, or maybe not even want to, let go of that feeling that we've been hard done by. Thing is, does this help us or hinder us? Is it workable in the longer term?

What I see in your posts is a good person clinging on to a narrative that is hurting him and holding him back. This is why my posts to you challenge the narrative. It's the unworkability I challenge, not you as a person. It's not about blaming the victim. It's about saying that you can change this. You have the ability to take control and change the narrative, and over time, the experience.

All the best to you.

[Aimz]

Hi Michelle,

Wow.....I could have written that myself because that's exactly how I feel.
I'm 31....turning 32 at the end of the year and I have bounced around from job to job as I am never satisfied.
I keep saying to myself that I need to sort my life out and find out what I really want to do but end up going around in circles.
I am only working part time because of my anxiety/and the fact I am fed up with office work and was hoping to fill up the rest of my free time to study something I actually have a passion for.
It has finally got to breaking point recently and I am seriously considering taking up study in the health and nutrition field as that is something I live and breath and have a passion for.
I am not bothered at all about marriage/children etc...I am only concerned about focusing on me right now.
I am getting there with baby steps...I find that if you think of too many things you need to fix all at once it becomes overwhelming.
Maybe speak to someone on the national careers website.
I emailed them and they sent me back a bunch of info on nutritionist courses.
Hope you work things out

[Marco]

[QUOTE=Hayman;2313462]

The one big thing that does bother me and pains me every day to the point I feel sick in the pit of my stomach is that I'm not allowed to have a relationship – not even so much as a date, regardless of what I do. To say that as a 32 year old man is a huge embarrassment to me and it's something I've been made to feel inferior about by numerous people each and every passing year with sarcastic little quips, jokes in conversations e.t.c… when I've not even raised the subject. This has caused me a huge chunk of the Social Anxiety I live with today. This issue, without shadow of doubt, is my life's biggest bugbear. Lets just say I ever did get somewhere… What's going to make up for that 16 year (and counting) 'gap' of loss, humiliation and pain that almost no one else of my age has had to deal with? I really can't see how I can ever solve this problem. Especially the way society negatively judges and stigmatises men like myself who simply have absolutely zero luck or positive feedback in order to develop what’s considered essential – confidence. /QUOTE]

Life doesn’t owe us anything. It’s a rather sad truism. But I understand Hayman’s pain – I’ve been there as I’m sure have many others who use this forum. When it comes to finding or initiating relationships, SA can sometimes hit men very hard. I had to wait until my late thirties before I found my first and only partner and wife to be.

Never give up on yourself, Hayman. Don’t be defeatist. Look to maximise your opportunities, look after yourself, eat well, exercise regularly, take pride in your appearance (as my mum used to say to me), and try to lighten up (read humorous books, watch lots of comedies, etc) because a daily dose of humour not only makes you feel better, but it is also a great ice-breaker. With the right attitude, you will definitely find someone.

PS - I wish I could figure out how to use the quote feature properly

[Ajax Amsterdam]

^
I think you almost had the quote right there, Marco. Looks like you needed one of these [ at the end so it looked like - [/QUOTE]

[David K]

Originally Posted by Hayman

It's something that people ridicule me over and rather than accepting this basic life progression just isn't going to happen for me and offer some understanding/support, they'd rather make me feel three inches tall instead.

No one here is doing that. I understand what it's like to be lonely and forgotten, but I am not going to support your view that some people are doomed no matter what.

You say your posts are constructive, but defeatism is anything but.

Originally Posted by Hayman

I know in my heart I've done everything I possibly can and pushed myself to the point of almost being physically ill... It still hasn't been anywhere near good enough.

I keep asking what you've done but you never answer me.

[Clementine]

Originally Posted by Hayman

I'm not annoyed by comments such as "life doesn't owe you anything". I find it quite amusing, actually. It***8217;s just the negativity that I***8217;m more than used to facing when I try and open up about the problems I face.

It certainly wasn't meant to annoy (or amuse) you, it wasn't 'negativity' or meant as an insult and I'm very sorry that you have taken it that way. I assure you that my post came from a place of compassion and apologies if it sounded harsh.
I genuinely wish that I had words that could get through to you and help you to see your situation differently as I strongly believe that changing the way you look at things could help you so much.
In my view, accepting the fact that the universe owes us nothing, that we aren't 'entitled' to the good stuff and that nothing about life is fair is actually liberating.
If we see ourselves as victims then we're limiting ourselves massively.

Anyway, sorry again, people here are honestly trying to help you, support isn't always having people agree with everything we believe though, sometimes it's having our unhelpful views challenged. It doesn't mean that it's not meant with kindness. I wish you well

[David K]

Originally Posted by CameraObscuraFan

Or you could try to build an enjoyable life which someone else might want to be a part of, make your home look nicer etc., learn to cook, do things which add to your "social capital" and make you more of a catch.

I think this is absolutely key. You need to at least show that you have the capacity to enjoy life, otherwise why would anyone want to share theirs with you?

[Ajax Amsterdam]

^
Absolutely. 100%.
The key is to build a life we enjoy living. By identifying and living to our values, and creating a life we can feel comfortable inviting others into, we massively enhance our chances of others wanting a slice of it too. Even without someone in our life to share it with initially this, in itself, will enhance our own lived experience. What this helps bring into our lives later is the the cherry on the cake.

I know, nothing comes particularly easy when we have SA and related issues, but few things worth having in life come easy anyway. We just have to do all we can in order to make the best of who we are and what we have. Our outlook and attitudes determine our actions, and our actions will determine how we get on in life. We have to build a life we feel comfortable living, and when we do so it's not uncommon to find others we meet from time to time might also want to share it with us.

I say this with good intentions. I know it's a painful thing to accept, and it was very painful for me when the penny finally dropped too. But, getting out of a rut in life. Getting out of a painful place and moving forward often means ripping up the narrative we have of ourselves and life in general and looking to replace them with more helpful and workable ones.

[Damp_Squib]

^ Drink a litre of water that should do it

[Clementine]

I think this is my ideal. Naps and snacks.

Preferably with likeminded company

[Gomen]

A good job so I could live on my own.

My dad left he has it has good. It will be a great day when I never have to speak to him or my mom again.