"Disability payments should go to 'really disabled' - not those who suffer anxiety."

[erase&rewind]

In a way I feel that this is the correct choice because due to the nature of mental health it is very hard for any government to ensure the right people get access to benefits.

For those who need it, the system will always be abused unfortunately.

A low stress job would I feel be the best option for the majority of anxiety related claimants, as it puts you in a stronger position to move forward in your life, a disability payment can help keep you stuck in the longer term. However I wouldn***8217;t rule out a short term (e.g. 6 month) disability payment to help those who are really struggling.

[Dougella]

^ What kinds of jobs are 'low stress'? And where would we find them? Also how is someone who cannot leave their house alone supposed to get to and from this job?

[Ajax Amsterdam]

Originally Posted by firemonkey

@FraidyCat do you have any statistics as to how many benefit claimants fake MI, or is this just pro Tory misinformation/propaganda ?

Apologies for jumping in, but...

According to a Parliamentary report, the percentage of benefits overall that are claimed fraudulently is just 0.7%. On that basis the figure of those fraudulently claiming for MH issues alone must be miniscule in the scheme of things.

Far more money in benefits goes unclaimed than is claimed fraudulently.
Compare all this to what is lost through tax avoidance. Imagine if they could actually be bothered chasing up their tax-avoiding buddies rather than the mentally ill. Imagine how much they could ''bring down the deficit'' then. I won't hold my breath, of course...

[Metal Goat]

Do greedy people really go on benefits? It seems like a lot of work for very very little money. The same goes for "lazy" people - most "laziness" is in fact someone suffering from clinical depression.

And if someone would actually choose to claim benefits and live off very little money than get a job then there's probably a good chance they do have some kind of mental illness like anxiety or depression.

Most people absolutely want a job, to earn a decent amount of money and be able to buy things they want/go out at the weekend. Most people don't particularly enjoy going to work, but if you're mentally healthy it's usually not the worst thing ever and is worth it to get your paycheck. I've never known anyone who would genuinely rather stay at home for a fraction of the money unless they've been so ill with anxiety or whatever that they feel they have no choice.

Who decides what these low stress jobs are anyway? Disability isn't exactly easy to claim as it is and those who are on it are not likely to find that suddenly it's okay if they just find a "low stress job" whatever that is. We're not talking about someone who has a breakdown then gets back on their feet. Some people are severely ill for their whole lives. It doesn't mean I have no hope that it will ever get better for them because I think it's possible for some but that "work or starve" is not the answer.

I can't imagine a significant amount of people wanting to go on benefits instead of work unless they absolutely had to. It's hardly an easy life of luxury is it? It's more a life of being stigmatized and living off very little. It shocks me that so many people choose the worst off in our society to turn against.

I find this policy disgusting. Putting mentally ill people through the "six sessions of generic CBT and sending them on their way" machine hasn't been working out so well so now we do this.

[erase&rewind]

Originally Posted by Dougella

^ What kinds of jobs are 'low stress'? And where would we find them? Also how is someone who cannot leave their house alone supposed to get to and from this job?

I suppose it would depend on the person, for me a low stress job would be a job where I don't have to take authority and am just given tasks to do. For example nightshift at a supermarket shelf stacking, hotel maid etc. They would be physically demanding jobs but not overly stressful for me.

In the past when I was not working, I should have done this but it was easier to avoid things until I got another job which I usually found too stressful . So I am not speaking from experience, just hindsight (although I understand most people here will disagree with me)

I understand some people will not be able to work, but my thinking is that anxiety is a treatable condition so giving people benefits for having it is counterintuitive. The same with many other mental health conditions, in the long term it may just help keep people stuck.

I would be more in favour of disability benefits for physical conditions.

[misska]

I have done hotel work cleaning etc and every time I was taken advantage of. Made to work every weekend got all the worst jobs no one else wanted. Because I couldnt stand up for my self people saw me as week. I also was bullied out of my last job. I will never fit in anywhere unless I was my own boss somehow. I dont agree with anxiety being a disability but I think personality disorders can be classed as a disability

[Ajax Amsterdam]

Originally Posted by erase&rewind

I suppose it would depend on the person, for me a low stress job would be a job where I don't have to take authority and am just given tasks to do. For example nightshift at a supermarket shelf stacking, hotel maid etc. They would be physically demanding jobs but not overly stressful for me.

In the past when I was not working, I should have done this but it was easier to avoid things until I got another job which I usually found too stressful . So I am not speaking from experience, just hindsight (although I understand most people here will disagree with me)

I understand some people will not be able to work, but my thinking is that anxiety is a treatable condition so giving people benefits for having it is counterintuitive. The same with many other mental health conditions, in the long term it may just help keep people stuck.

I would be more in favour of disability benefits for physical conditions.

In practice it all gets very complicated. Who determines what 'low stress' actually is? Of course, what stresses one person does not necessarily stress another. Also, people aren't helped and supported into the kinds of working environments they can cope with. They are usually railroaded into anything that is available. They tried this with me some years ago and although I'd made a lot of progress and put a lot of hard work into trying to recover I ended up suicidal and in need of crisis team intervention. The whole mess set me back years.

I agree that anxiety is treatable, but it can also be complex and have numerous co-existing issues. People aren't given benefits for having it. They are given benefits as a safety net to stop them going under due to having very real and debilitating issues. In many cases the benefits can be the difference between life and death. A roof over the head or sleeping on the streets. I know for certain that without the benefits system I'd be dead now. I simply could not have survived. I'm in a better place now because of the benefits system, not in spite of it.

Few employers, even with the best of intentions, can put up with an employee riddled with paralysing anxiety, suicidal thinking and tendencies, self-harming behaviour, erratic behaviour, freezing in performance tasks and when observed, bouts of depression, severely lacking in confidence to perform even minor tasks as well as a host of anxiety-driven psychosomatic illnesses etc, etc...

For me, I don't really believe throwing people into things they cannot cope with is the answer. However, if a person feels they are up to easing themselves into the workplace then I am 100% behind them doing so and hope they get the correct support and encouragement that they need. Once an anxious person feels forced into anything then the damage will usually outweigh any benefit, though. It will be counter productive and could see them worse off than before.

I think a much better way forward is to recognise just how debilitating mental health problems actually are and be honest about just how much they cost people on a human level and the country as a whole on a financial level. Many of the people actually in jobs these days are at breaking point with stress and have dreadful levels of mental wellbeing. It's no coincidence that absenteeism due to mental health issues is rife these days. So, rather than pretending that mental health is of lesser importance than physical health I think we need to get real and understand that if the mind is not working, then the body follows suit. For the body to perform well, the mind needs to be well too. The way forward is to recognise this and to address mental health properly. Fund it properly and support people properly.

I think we have to get away from the idea that only physical conditions can be disabling. I worked for seven years with people with varying degrees of physical disability. Some of them very severe indeed, to the extent where I had to feed them, toilet them and bathe them. Thing is though, even those people had more of a life than some people I have known with anxiety disorders and their associated issues. One person I looked after was severely disabled physically and could do much more with his life than I could back then. Another guy was like Stephen Hawking. He couldn't do a single thing for himself physically, yet he could talk through an electronic keyboard, he had loads of friends, went out all of the time in his wheelchair, went to University and is now a published author. I, one of the guys who looked after him, was so crippled by anxiety and the other issues I mentioned earlier that I eventually imploded and had a complete mental breakdown and had to quit my post. So, disability is not so cut and dried, really. There are lots of shades of grey inbetween the black and white.

Of course, some people's anxiety will be at a level where they feel they can, if they push themselves, manage to work in certain environments. That's fantastic and should be supported and encouraged. Many are not yet at that point, though. Some may never get there. I'm not being negative when I say that; I'm just reflecting reality. Those people need support and understanding too, otherwise they will go under and simply won't survive.

[firemonkey]

Originally Posted by erase&rewind

I would be more in favour of disability benefits for physical conditions.

So what you are basically saying is it would be ok to treat those with mental health conditions as third class citizens.
What about those with severe mental illnesses are they suitable candidates for being denied disability benefits in your eyes?
I find it offensive that anyone would suggest those of us with mental illnesses should be treated less equally to those with physical conditions.
It's that kind of attitude that perpetuates stigma against the mentally ill in our society. It's that kind of attitude that encourages hate attacks against the mentally ill.

[Dougella]

Originally Posted by erase&rewind

I suppose it would depend on the person, for me a low stress job would be a job where I don't have to take authority and am just given tasks to do. For example nightshift at a supermarket shelf stacking, hotel maid etc. They would be physically demanding jobs but not overly stressful for me.

In the past when I was not working, I should have done this but it was easier to avoid things until I got another job which I usually found too stressful . So I am not speaking from experience, just hindsight (although I understand most people here will disagree with me)

I understand some people will not be able to work, but my thinking is that anxiety is a treatable condition so giving people benefits for having it is counterintuitive. The same with many other mental health conditions, in the long term it may just help keep people stuck.

I would be more in favour of disability benefits for physical conditions.

I should clarify actually that PIP/DLA is paid to people whether they're in work or not, it's actually meant to help people to be able to get to work or whatever else they need to do. So really there's even more of a reason to make sure people who need it can access it.

There is a problem with a real lack of mental health services at the moment, getting the help you need when you have a mental health condition is difficult. There's also a lack of experienced disability advisors in job centres who can help people find a kind of work that they're able to do.

I do find it sad that even on a mental health forum some people are saying that mental health should be treated differently from physical health.

[Dougella]

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politic...d-kill-9932739

Jeremy Corbyn has signed a formal bid to kill of an emergency law denying increased benefits to 150,000 people.

Shadow Work and Pensions secretary Debbie Abrahams, who has reported the PIP shake up to the United Nations, has also signed the motion against the law.

[Mr. Nobody]

Originally Posted by firemonkey

@FraidyCat do you have any statistics as to how many benefit claimants fake MI, or is this just pro Tory misinformation/propaganda ?

I've seen people on here discussing how to embellish exaggerate and magnify their symptoms to get benefits, when going for their ATOS medical.

[erase&rewind]

Originally Posted by misska

I have done hotel work cleaning etc and every time I was taken advantage of. Made to work every weekend got all the worst jobs no one else wanted. Because I couldnt stand up for my self people saw me as week. I also was bullied out of my last job. I will never fit in anywhere unless I was my own boss somehow. I dont agree with anxiety being a disability but I think personality disorders can be classed as a disability

I would agree with this, certain personality disorders could benefit from the extra security that disability payment could give them.

Originally Posted by Ajax Amsterdam

In practice it all gets very complicated. Who determines what 'low stress' actually is? Of course, what stresses one person does not necessarily stress another. Also, people aren't helped and supported into the kinds of working environments they can cope with. They are usually railroaded into anything that is available. They tried this with me some years ago and although I'd made a lot of progress and put a lot of hard work into trying to recover I ended up suicidal and in need of crisis team intervention. The whole mess set me back years.

I agree that anxiety is treatable, but it can also be complex and have numerous co-existing issues. People aren't given benefits for having it. They are given benefits as a safety net to stop them going under due to having very real and debilitating issues. In many cases the benefits can be the difference between life and death. A roof over the head or sleeping on the streets. I know for certain that without the benefits system I'd be dead now. I simply could not have survived. I'm in a better place now because of the benefits system, not in spite of it.

For me, I don't really believe throwing people into things they cannot cope with is the answer. However, if a person feels they are up to easing themselves into the workplace then I am 100% behind them doing so and hope they get the correct support and encouragement that they need. Once an anxious person feels forced into anything then the damage will usually outweigh any benefit, though. It will be counter productive and could see them worse off than before.

I did clarify the above jobs would be low stress for me.

I don't agree with the methods the tories are using BTW + I could have been more careful in my choice of words in places.

I think that anyone with a history of anxiety should be supported with a view to hopefully returning to work rather than being forced to take any position, but I personally think an extra disability payment will hinder progress for certain MH conditions like anxiety which is what this topic is about. I agree with a benefits system and a high tax system FWIW, but does the current system help people in the long term?

Originally Posted by Ajax Amsterdam

Few employers, even with the best of intentions, can put up with an employee riddled with paralysing anxiety, suicidal thinking and tendencies, self-harming behaviour, erratic behaviour, freezing in performance tasks and when observed, bouts of depression, severely lacking in confidence to perform even minor tasks as well as a host of anxiety-driven psychosomatic illnesses etc, etc...

I agree this person should not be working and should be supported within the mental health system until they are in a position to work.

Originally Posted by Ajax Amsterdam

I think a much better way forward is to recognise just how debilitating mental health problems actually are and be honest about just how much they cost people on a human level and the country as a whole on a financial level. Many of the people actually in jobs these days are at breaking point with stress and have dreadful levels of mental wellbeing. It's no coincidence that absenteeism due to mental health issues is rife these days. So, rather than pretending that mental health is of lesser importance than physical health I think we need to get real and understand that if the mind is not working, then the body follows suit. For the body to perform well, the mind needs to be well too. The way forward is to recognise this and to address mental health properly. Fund it properly and support people properly.

I think we have to get away from the idea that only physical conditions can be disabling. I worked for seven years with people with varying degrees of physical disability. Some of them very severe indeed, to the extent where I had to feed them, toilet them and bathe them. Thing is though, even those people had more of a life than some people I have known with anxiety disorders and their associated issues. One person I looked after was severely disabled physically and could do much more with his life than I could back then. Another guy was like Stephen Hawking. He couldn't do a single thing for himself physically, yet he could talk through an electronic keyboard, he had loads of friends, went out all of the time in his wheelchair, went to University and is now a published author. I, one of the guys who looked after him, was so crippled by anxiety and the other issues I mentioned earlier that I eventually imploded and had a complete mental breakdown and had to quit my post. So, disability is not so cut and dried, really. There are lots of shades of grey inbetween the black and white.

I realise how debilitating SA and avoidance are because they have affected my life a lot, I just don't feel that disability payments are helpful for people with my conditions. They might be useful but not helpful.

Other MH conditions, then yes it may be helpful in the long term.

Originally Posted by Ajax Amsterdam

Of course, some people's anxiety will be at a level where they feel they can, if they push themselves, manage to work in certain environments. That's fantastic and should be supported and encouraged. Many are not yet at that point, though. Some may never get there. I'm not being negative when I say that; I'm just reflecting reality. Those people need support and understanding too, otherwise they will go under and simply won't survive.

Yes I agree that there needs to be a support system

Originally Posted by firemonkey

So what you are basically saying is it would be ok to treat those with mental health conditions as third class citizens.
What about those with severe mental illnesses are they suitable candidates for being denied disability benefits in your eyes?
I find it offensive that anyone would suggest those of us with mental illnesses should be treated less equally to those with physical conditions.
It's that kind of attitude that perpetuates stigma against the mentally ill in our society. It's that kind of attitude that encourages hate attacks against the mentally ill.

The topic is about anxiety - what I am saying is I don't feel this extra benefit payment will help the person in the long term. (I am thinking mainly about SA and avoidance)

For other MH conditions, then yes I think they should be considered for disability.

Originally Posted by Dougella

I should clarify actually that PIP/DLA is paid to people whether they're in work or not, it's actually meant to help people to be able to get to work or whatever else they need to do. So really there's even more of a reason to make sure people who need it can access it.

There is a problem with a real lack of mental health services at the moment, getting the help you need when you have a mental health condition is difficult. There's also a lack of experienced disability advisors in job centres who can help people find a kind of work that they're able to do.

I do find it sad that even on a mental health forum some people are saying that mental health should be treated differently from physical health.

It's not that I feel that mental health should be treated differently from physical health, I feel there should be a good support system for both. I feel that disability payments for anxiety could hinder people's long term progress instead of helping.

I can understand the frustration, lack of empowerment and stress that people have to go through while there is so much talk about, and changes to the benefit system.

[Dougella]

^ What do you expect people to live on then, while they're not able to work but if they can't get benefits?

Also I think you're forgetting that anxiety can be a component of many conditions for instance Autism, PTSD, dementia, etc. If the rules for PIP are changed, which is what this thread is about, then people with these conditions could lose out on money that they really need.

[Dougella]

Originally Posted by Carbon(cycle)Fodder

I've seen people on here discussing how to embellish exaggerate and magnify their symptoms to get benefits, when going for their ATOS medical.

I think you'll find that what people discuss here is the need to be completely honest about their worst symptoms and what they're like on their worst days when going to a medical assessment, not that they are exaggerating or embellishing their illness.

[firemonkey]

Originally Posted by erase&rewind

I would agree with this, certain personality disorders could benefit from the extra security that disability payment could afford them. However in my own opinion not anxiety or SA (or Avoidance Personality Disorder) which I have been diagnosed with.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1904485/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2888850/


I would say avoidant PD can be quite disabling and deserving of disability benefits.

[erase&rewind]

Originally Posted by Dougella

^ What do you expect people to live on then, while they're not able to work but if they can't get benefits?

Also I think you're forgetting that anxiety can be a component of many conditions for instance Autism, PTSD, dementia, etc. If the rules for PIP are changed, which is what this thread is about, then people with these conditions could lose out on money that they really need.

I still agree with having a benefits system, having a good support system for MH and not forcing people with a MH history into work before they are ready.

My responses are based around the title of this thread, not on how the tories are dealing with the situation. Their cuts will be too heavy handed and will impact many people who would benefit.

Originally Posted by firemonkey

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1904485/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2888850/

I would say avoidant PD can be quite disabling and deserving of disability benefits.

The extra benefit may enable an AvPD sufferer to avoid more, which is the last thing they will need 10 years down the line.

But thanks for letting me know that if I have any children then statistically they may have a greater chance of having Schizophrenia.

[Ronnie_Pickering]

I agree with you eraseandrewind. But this is not to agitate those who are unemployed, but its just people can get into this trap- sign on onto ESA- very scared to work and thrown into something can't handle so settle with the status quo. Someone I know in former houseshare committed suicide- just thrown onto ESA and he eventually lost the motivation to go on his motorbike each day, nothing to live for, and that was the end of that.

MH needs to be taken more serious, and I'm not sure how that can be done-I am of the belief there should be a MH agency that finds people suitable work, and can have an allowance for 'days when its too much'. I found a job agency last year that would just put me into assignments and if I didn't want to go again, they'd find me something else.

[Ajax Amsterdam]

Originally Posted by erase&rewind

...My responses are based around the title of this thread, not on how the tories are dealing with the situation...

I appreciate that, but the title of the thread implies that anxiety cannot debilitate a person. This is clearly not the case. When we are talking about anxiety at disordered levels then it absolutely can disable a person from being in a position to do the things a place of work requires from them. The implication is also that MH issues are somehow less real than physcial conditions.

To my mind, disability payments should be made to anyone who finds themselves disabled regardless of whether it's due to physical problems, MH problems or both. Adequate support should be given in order to assist the person back to a level of health where they can work again. Some may never reach that level, but many would do with adequate support.

Don't get me wrong, I do understand your points, and you are certainly not the type of person to simply dismiss people with MH issues. You've been there yourself, so talk through experience. SA, as we both know only too well, is a condition riddled with avoidant behaviour which needs to be addressed if the sufferer is ever going to recover. I used to be horrifically avoidant. I was never diagnosed with AvPD but I wouldn't be surprised if it played a big part in my life for at least three decades. I actually tried to break my own bones with a hammer in the past just to avoid certain social obligations.

The model of therapy which I use on myself (ACT) hypothesises that experiential avoidance is one of the main psychopathological processes which keep us stuck, and I fully understand your suggestion that giving avoidant people benefits can actually help enable and maintain further avoidance. It's a tough situation though. Take the benefit away and I guarantee the suicide rate will spike. Personally speaking, I feel that benefit should be paid because those affected by disordered levels of anxiety often genuinely are disabled from the world of employment. But, proper understanding of such conditions should be offered, along with properly funded therapies in order to assist people not only back into the workplace, but also into a position where they have a reasonable quality of life.

For me, disability payments should go to those who really need them.
Where I disagree with the thread title is in that I believe that disability can come in different forms. Disability through mental illhealth should be treated just as seriously as disability through physical illhealth. Thus, until a person is fit to work once more, I feel the safety net should be there for them and adequate support should be put in place to assist them with addressing their issues.

[Ronnie_Pickering]

I might be wrong but I think this is all 'their original categories'. So the way maybe they'll doing it as their terminology is to put anxiety, depression and low confidence people in ESA- WRAG .(Which is employment support, work related activity group?) rather than disability.. No doubt in some cases it can be a permanent disability)

Edit- They might have removed ESA-Wrag. I do think this is reclassifying in some way- disability might be reserved for those needing extra moneys because of needing aids and that.

[Ronnie_Pickering]

Originally Posted by Ajax Amsterdam

In practice it all gets very complicated. Who determines what 'low stress' actually is? Of course, what stresses one person does not necessarily stress another. Also, people aren't helped and supported into the kinds of working environments they can cope with. They are usually railroaded into anything that is available. They tried this with me some years ago and although I'd made a lot of progress and put a lot of hard work into trying to recover I ended up suicidal and in need of crisis team intervention. The whole mess set me back years.

I agree that anxiety is treatable, but it can also be complex and have numerous co-existing issues. People aren't given benefits for having it. They are given benefits as a safety net to stop them going under due to having very real and debilitating issues. In many cases the benefits can be the difference between life and death. A roof over the head or sleeping on the streets. I know for certain that without the benefits system I'd be dead now. I simply could not have survived. I'm in a better place now because of the benefits system, not in spite of it.

Few employers, even with the best of intentions, can put up with an employee riddled with paralysing anxiety, suicidal thinking and tendencies, self-harming behaviour, erratic behaviour, freezing in performance tasks and when observed, bouts of depression, severely lacking in confidence to perform even minor tasks as well as a host of anxiety-driven psychosomatic illnesses etc, etc...

For me, I don't really believe throwing people into things they cannot cope with is the answer. However, if a person feels they are up to easing themselves into the workplace then I am 100% behind them doing so and hope they get the correct support and encouragement that they need. Once an anxious person feels forced into anything then the damage will usually outweigh any benefit, though. It will be counter productive and could see them worse off than before.

I think a much better way forward is to recognise just how debilitating mental health problems actually are and be honest about just how much they cost people on a human level and the country as a whole on a financial level. Many of the people actually in jobs these days are at breaking point with stress and have dreadful levels of mental wellbeing. It's no coincidence that absenteeism due to mental health issues is rife these days. So, rather than pretending that mental health is of lesser importance than physical health I think we need to get real and understand that if the mind is not working, then the body follows suit. For the body to perform well, the mind needs to be well too. The way forward is to recognise this and to address mental health properly. Fund it properly and support people properly.

I think we have to get away from the idea that only physical conditions can be disabling. I worked for seven years with people with varying degrees of physical disability. Some of them very severe indeed, to the extent where I had to feed them, toilet them and bathe them. Thing is though, even those people had more of a life than some people I have known with anxiety disorders and their associated issues. One person I looked after was severely disabled physically and could do much more with his life than I could back then. Another guy was like Stephen Hawking. He couldn't do a single thing for himself physically, yet he could talk through an electronic keyboard, he had loads of friends, went out all of the time in his wheelchair, went to University and is now a published author. I, one of the guys who looked after him, was so crippled by anxiety and the other issues I mentioned earlier that I eventually imploded and had a complete mental breakdown and had to quit my post. So, disability is not so cut and dried, really. There are lots of shades of grey inbetween the black and white.

Of course, some people's anxiety will be at a level where they feel they can, if they push themselves, manage to work in certain environments. That's fantastic and should be supported and encouraged. Many are not yet at that point, though. Some may never get there. I'm not being negative when I say that; I'm just reflecting reality. Those people need support and understanding too, otherwise they will go under and simply won't survive.

I agree with all of that.

[Ronnie_Pickering]

I think 'low stress' is straightforward. I think unemployment and being in a persistently low peak state can convulate things. JSA stressed me out a lot, I do believe there needs to be changes. I do think people claiming disability was an unintended consequence of how the Tories have set out the benefit system- I think underlying it was probably for people needing extra money for stuff like walking AIDS and stuff. But it does beg the question what they are doing with MH people. I do worry that the way things are viewed is clumsily push people into work because it's cheaper that way than support. I guess it's watching what they do.

[erase&rewind]

Originally Posted by Ajax Amsterdam

I appreciate that, but the title of the thread implies that anxiety cannot debilitate a person. This is clearly not the case. When we are talking about anxiety at disordered levels then it absolutely can disable a person from being in a position to do the things a place of work requires from them. The implication is also that MH issues are somehow less real than physcial conditions.

I'd have to agree with that, it's not the best sound bite

Originally Posted by Ajax Amsterdam

The model of therapy which I use on myself (ACT) hypothesises that experiential avoidance is one of the main psychopathological processes which keep us stuck, and I fully understand your suggestion that giving avoidant people benefits can actually help enable and maintain further avoidance. It's a tough situation though. Take the benefit away and I guarantee the suicide rate will spike. Personally speaking, I feel that benefit should be paid because those affected by disordered levels of anxiety often genuinely are disabled from the world of employment. But, proper understanding of such conditions should be offered, along with properly funded therapies in order to assist people not only back into the workplace, but also into a position where they have a reasonable quality of life.

For me, disability payments should go to those who really need them.
Where I disagree with the thread title is in that I believe that disability can come in different forms. Disability through mental illhealth should be treated just as seriously as disability through physical illhealth. Thus, until a person is fit to work once more, I feel the safety net should be there for them and adequate support should be put in place to assist them with addressing their issues.

I agree with what you say apart from one thing really ***8211; the extra disability payment.
For example if the younger generation of anxiety sufferers are never given the extra disability payment, then they will never have to fear it being taken away and won***8217;t have to live with the extra lack of empowerment and frustration that the current process entails. They would still receive benefits and hopefully have access to decent support system. I also like ACT, though have never heard of experiential avoidance before. So a system that helps people to develop skills of acceptance and compassion for the things they find difficult while enabling them to focus on what they value and could work towards would be beneficial. I don***8217;t expect many will disagree with this; it***8217;s just if an extra disability payment would help or hinder this. A poll would be interesting on this, I think more people would say it helps, (but as you say it is not black and white), but it is still an interesting discussion.

My thinking could perhaps be summarised by the following story

What Avoiding Pain Cost the Emperor Moth

A man found a cocoon of an emperor moth. He took it home so that he could watch the moth come
out of the cocoon.
On the day a small opening appeared, he sat and watched the moth for several hours, just watching
as the moth struggled to force its body through that little hole. Then it seemed to stop making any
progress. It appeared to have gotten as far as it could. It just seemed stuck.

Then the man, in his kindness, decided to help the moth. So he took a pair of scissors and snipped
off the remaining bit of the cocoon. The moth emerged easily, but it had a swollen body and small
shriveled wings. The man continued to watch. He expected that, at any moment, the wings would
enlarge and open out to be able to support the body. Neither happened! The little moth spent the
rest of its life crawling around with a swollen body and shriveled wings. It never was able to fly.

What the man in his kindness and haste didn***8217;t understand was this: In order for the moth to fly, it
needed to experience the restricting cocoon and the painful struggle as it emerged through the tiny
opening. This was a necessary part of a process to force fluid from the body and into the wings so
that the moth would be ready for flight once it achieved freedom from the cocoon. Freedom and
flight would only come after allowing painful struggle. By depriving the moth of struggle, the man
deprived the moth of health.

Originally Posted by Ramon

I agree with you eraseandrewind. But this is not to agitate those who are unemployed, but its just people can get into this trap- sign on onto ESA- very scared to work and thrown into something can't handle so settle with the status quo. Someone I know in former houseshare committed suicide- just thrown onto ESA and he eventually lost the motivation to go on his motorbike each day, nothing to live for, and that was the end of that.

I***8217;d agree with that, my time on jobseekers was when I felt the least empowered and most frustrated when trying to deal with things ***8211; although I could avoid things which helped (or didn***8217;t).

[Mo34]

I'd have been dead with without being accepted for the support group of ESA (I might add I actually had a job when I went on ESA because I couldn't cope). I couldn't cope with even basic things and have no family for support, I still have a problem when at home going in and out of my house. Disability payments (DLA) have helped me move forward as they've allowed me to access mental health help and support and also to volunteer, all of which does cost money in travel (8.50 is the min bus fare to anywhere from my village). NHS mental health services could provide me with no appropriate treatment, I did not have the correct disorder to access counselling/psychotherapy which is what was recommended by 2 shrinks.
Even though I was told by a cpn she felt avoident personality disorder and trauma was what was wrong with me I couldn't access therapy/support for personality disorders because i don't cut myself. I couldn't access a psychologist with the CMHT as there is only 1 part time psychologist for the whole service and she told a CPN 'it would do her more harm than good'. So where's all this support and help then?

Removing DLA would not have forced me into the world of work - much to the contrary it would have made me withdraw more. And if forced in to the activities of WRAG probably made me a hospital case. I've been hospitalised as inpatient in a general hospital ward before with severe anxiety and it's not funny.
Everyone is different and to say that ppl with anxiety don't deserve disability payments is nonsense. I'm not saying everyone is eligible, far from it, but some ppl undoubtedly are. I was lucky I had a doctor assess me for ESA rather than a HCP/Nurse. He could see how bad I was and recommended to the DWP I should be moved to the support group.

[Between The Bars]

Thanks for posting this wjfox.

I remember a quote saying 'If you're claiming benefits, and vote tory, then yer aff yer fuukin nut' or words tae that effect.

Well, that's true enough.

[-andrew-]

This is ridiculous. Work is torture for SA sufferers that is if they are lucky enough to get hired in the first place.

[ryan2032]

Originally Posted by Dougella

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a7600151.html

£3.7bn cut in disability benefits needed to help cut the deficit, says cabinet minister (Patrick McLoughlin)

"Patrick McLoughlin said ministers had to view the funding, which would go to people with conditions including epilepsy, diabetes and dementia, in the context of a wider need to reduce the UK's budget deficit."

So we're back to using the excuse of reducing the deficit are we, not heard that one for a while!

Does that mean they are cutting benefits for people with Epilepsy?

[Dougella]

^ In terms of PIP, possibly.

[ryan2032]

It's difficult enough to get PIP with Epilepsy. I have Epilepsy myself and it's a condition you will have your whole life and effects you daily, I don't understand how they can make cuts not that I have ever applied for PIP myself.

[Dougella]

^ Really? I would have thought epilepsy would be a condition where the risks and difficulties are obvious, but I guess it's not easy to qualify for benefits with any illness or disability now!

[ryan2032]

With Epilepsy you need to prove you need help at least 50% of the time. I'm not even sure I would cover 50% myself but i guess I'm not thinking of the wider picture. Washing, cooking, memory loss etc. Personally I don't understand the 50% rule because all it takes is a seizure at the wrong time - stairs, cooker, bath and you can be seriously injured.

I have never thought about applying for PIP because of my SA and making phone calls, the face to face assessment which I find difficult.