Indulging in fantasy

[Amara 94]

Originally Posted by gregarious_introvert

^ I could (not for the first time) be talking complete and utter hairy spherical male appendages here, as I know nothing about depersonalisation and dissociation, but I do have some experience of bad vibes and making people feel uncomfortable. For years (read half a century), I had no idea how the world saw me or what I was doing wrong; all I knew is that I was universally rejected, vilified and abused - until someone actually told me how aggressive I looked to other people, how I couldn't "read the room" (I had no idea that non-verbal communication even existed and body language was as incomprehensible to me as Urdu or Cantonese) and how defensive my posture was. Of course, I had no idea that this was related to being neurodivergent (I had suspected for two decades that I was autistic, but wouldn't be diagnosed until a year after this moment of revelation), but I began trying to learn how to interpret non-verbal communication, how to control my expression and voice tones (I am thankful that I had help in this respect, I think having someone to act as a "mirror" was vital), how to make my body language more welcome - in short, how to communicate effectively. I am still learning, I began 54 years later than I would have done if I were NT, but I am no longer universally rejected (I am still failing at building friendships, but getting closer all the time) and seem to have reached a level where I am accepted, if not quite welcomed with open arms. I have changed my vibe.

I am not suggesting that it's easy, or even that it's possible for everybody (I haven't experienced every neurological condition or psychological state), only that with the right guidance and a lot of learning (it is like studying an unfamiliar subject) and hard work, some of us can change the way others see us; obviously, the later in life we begin, the harder it will be and the less dramatic the change in how we are received, but making other people feel uncomfortable is real and the only change we can make to that is by understanding it from their perspective and not changing who we are, but changing how we are seen (I know some people will say that what I am advocating is masking, but I don't feel that I am masking, in fact I feel that, having opened the door to social interaction, I am actually allowing myself to be more "me" than I was able to do previously).

So, am I on the wrong track here, or does any of that resonate with anyone?

Sunrise, my interpretation of self-acceptance is not that you have to accept who you are if you look at yourself and don't like what you see; to me, it means that you accept your faults and the need to change them. Self-acceptance of something you and others don't like is pointless, because nothing changes. When you are your fantasy person, what is different about you? Can you make those differences become a reality? I know you can't make yourself better looking (I have the same issue!) but can you change how you talk to people, how you listen to people, how you are around people? Smiling, eye contact, asking questions and taking a genuine interest in the lives of others can go a long way (I'm not saying that you're not doing any of those things, it's just a generalised observation which may or may not be useful); that fantasy person, at least, is a portrayal of how you want to be, so what you need now is to look at how you can bring that person into the real world.

That’s interesting, how does it feel to practice social skills. And as you have learnt the social skills, our body language for certain situations, does it feel natural or forced?

I am imagining that you need a certain perspective though to get to the point that you consider your body language and how it’s comes across to other people, or allistic people.

I’m thinking that I need to look into masking as I’m not sure it’s all bad. I think it’s bad if it stops you from doing natural stuff like stimming. But when it comes to stuff like eye contact or smiling it’s not completely bad. But I imagine it takes lots of energy to do constantly.

[gregarious_introvert]

^ I'm not sure I can answer your questions effectively; in terms of my own body language, I would have struggled with anything which felt forced (I still struggle with smiling for photographs, even though I smile more naturally these days). it was more a case of being aware what was "open" and "closed" and then applying it consciously, until it became natural. I think that just knowing the importance of body language and how it is interpreted was enough to make me realise the changes needed.

I don't advovate masking. I am fortunate enough that my stims are relatively unnoticeable most of the time (I stopped rocking sometime in early adulthood, I'm not sure when the leg shaking ended, but neither of those were conscious changes, now I have finger-fiddling and putting my tongue to the roof of my mouth, both of which are easy to hide). Eye contact can be minimal (sustained eye contact can come across as staring and worse than none) and it doesn't take long - or didn't for me - for smiling to become more natural. The main issue, especially in the early days of trying to seem more approachable (and in my case, less threatening), is that the anxiety is still strong and with everything else which is going on in one's mind, trying to remember those conscious changes isn't always easy. As with anything, the more you practice, the more you refine what you're doing.

[Sunrise]

Maybe it's because I don't have autism, but I don't really understand what "masking" means? It's a word I've only heard used in recent years. I thought it meant pretending to be "normal", but I thought of it as more of a "fake it till you make it" type thing. I'm assuming that's not what it means. I'm definitely guilty of that, but I always thought that was a good thing. I want to behave in an emotionally healthy way. What is the actual alternative? Like I say I don't have autism so I'm not sure it's something I really understand. I don't have problems with eye contact or involuntary movements or anything of that nature so if it's more to do with that side of things I can't really relate at all.

I'm a loser in the sense that nobody respects me. Respect is important in life. If people don't respect you you've got no hope. You'll struggle with employment as you'll always be bottom of the ladder, any sort of friendship group or activity is impossible as you won't be welcome. Every situation in life that involves interacting with another person will favour the other person, they'll always have the upper hand. I don't know how to gain the respect of others because every attempt I try just comes across as trying too hard and inauthentic. I feel like people are keen to put me in my place whenever I try and better myself as they think I have ideas above my station. I feel like my place in life is as a "low value man", and that I should accept that as the natural order.

[Merry]

^ It sounds like you may have absorbed a lot of negative information about society and human kind over the years. Is the term "low value man" an internet term? My understanding of that kind of philosophy is that it's peddled by the lowest of the low to not "low value" men, but vulnerable, lonely men who don't have the support system that everyone needs to be ok, in order to try and make a bit of money. Parasites.

It's really sad to see people absorbing other people's bs.

It's also a set of values in part (I think) that stem from US notions of winners and losers, that doesn't really translate to the UK, as I think we have different personalities and things that we hold in high esteem (pets, cups of tea). Being one of life's "winners" isn't it, it just seems nonsensical, it's the kind of rhetoric Donald Trump uses.

You seem to spend a lot of time agonising over yourself as some kind of product, that needs to be a certain way to be ok. I can't see how that can ever help, as if we are constantly worrying about ourselves and how we present to the world we will always be miserable. Anyone would be, because we all suck.

I think part of it is just society and always being assessed and appraised, from a really young age.

I learned very early on with my children never to give them validation for things they have done, but instead always, always ask them "did you enjoy doing that?" Because validation from others is meaningless because everyone is different, you just have to enjoy your own life.
Maybe ask yourself what you enjoy for a change, rather than "what am I like?" Can you think of anything that you just enjoy for it's own sake? If not, can you remember something in life that you used to love doing?

[Sunrise]

It's a phrase that's common in self help/self improvement circles. I've been reading and watching a lot of that stuff lately. I thought it was a good thing? There's a whole thread on here devoted to that type of material that seems pretty popular.

It's not just an internet thing either. An NLP "practitioner" who I met in person gave me a similarly blunt assesment. I'm never sure if NLP is pseudoscientific snake oil or a reputable form of therapy, I hear conflicting things.

I think people like me are drawn to that type of material because it doesn't come naturally to us. It's easy to dismiss videos on something like how to become charismatic as red pill bullshit, but for those of us who it doesn't come natural too how else are we suppose to learn?

I never know what's good advice and what isn't. Personally I've never found the "learn to love yourself" advice helpful because their isn't any substance to it. I mean, why? What is there to actually love? Not a lot for someone like me, which is why I need to make a concerted effort to change.

I think seeing yourself as a product is something that's encouraged these days, but it's learning how to sell yourself that I struggle with. Look at how popular online dating is. It's all about your brand and knowing how to sell yourself. Same with applying for jobs. I don't think that's just me, it's the modern world. You need to look at what you have to offer to the world, and I don't feel I have anywhere near enough to offer so I need to rectify that.

I don't actually like that attitude, but it's how the modern world seems to work.

[Mr. Nobody]

I often used to fantasize about getting busy with my neighbour,
Be careful tho' folks, what you wish for usually tends to come true.