Do you ever worry that you'll regret not having kids?

[anxiouslondoner]

^ yet we let young people join the army at 18 and risk getting shot or their limbs blown off by an IED in some distant occupied land.

[Consolida]

^ Exactly!

[john smith]

Never wanted kids?

[Dougella]

^ Plenty of people don't ever want children. Me and my partner don't either.

[Dougella]

"Parenting young kids is exhausting. Should we rethink the nuclear family?"

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...nuclear-family

[choirgirl]

People seem very reluctant to return to the multigenerational family; even single parents tend to stay in/form their own households. I can see why, living with your parents/inlaws/relatives can get old after a while. Plus formal childcare arrangements probably make it less necessary. I think the majority of people like the nuclear family or some variant thereof which is presumably why it took off when it was economically possible. Also people seem to feel absolutely entitled to their own homes even if they can't afford them and even if they do have other options and could pool resources, a point I have made before and been castigated for. And if we did go back to multigenerational living, I hate to imagine how expensive housing would become. As for other arrangements, they seem very niche, and in the most unfortunate cases, perhaps dangerous for children. It's interesting that the kibbutz system went back to nuclear families, for example. Not that I know much all about this stuff.

It sounds like this family has a nice enough set up, with everyone getting the child they wanted, the couple staying together, and the child having a relationship with both biological parents. But I'd call that a niche set up, not a return to old ways.

[Dougella]

^ I do think that only certain types of people would want to actually live with their parents or in-laws! But more people seem to be moving closer to their extended family now, especially so that family can help with childcare. I can see how having supportive family around when children are young could really help.

[choirgirl]

Yes, people naturally want to have their cake and eat it (even if it means taking someone else's cake!). I can see it being helpful.

[anxiouslondoner]

I don't think it requires all living in the same house! Just having grandparents etc living nearby can help a lot. My sister lives in Spain and they are having trouble bringing up their young son due to the obvious lack of proximity of family. My Mum's going over there this weekend to see them for a week, and look after him during the daytime when he'd normally be at school or nursery (he's not even three yet, but they start school really early over there) so they can all get a bit of a rest. It's great for her as she loves to see him.

[Indigo_]

We have hardly any support network. My partner's parents are local but not able physically to take care of a baby. It is hard work with no support.

[Amara 94]

^ As they say it takes a village to raise kids.

Also I’ve heard of parents who talk of how hard it is to raise kids. It doesn’t always seem like a completely positive experience for all parents.

I’ve even heard that relationships are best maintained by having friends as it means you are less likely to get overly attached in your relationship that can lead to problems of itself.

For some people kids is a no brainier. For others, I think it can be a case of picking your own poison.

[Amara 94]

Originally Posted by anxiouslondoner

I don't think it requires all living in the same house! Just having grandparents etc living nearby can help a lot. My sister lives in Spain and they are having trouble bringing up their young son due to the obvious lack of proximity of family. My Mum's going over there this weekend to see them for a week, and look after him during the daytime when he'd normally be at school or nursery (he's not even three yet, but they start school really early over there) so they can all get a bit of a rest. It's great for her as she loves to see him.

Yeah I think having extended family that I didn’t know of till a few years ago and extended family distancing themselves from us in the Uk has really ****ed the family up but the results would mainly show if we were to just interact with each other. I know a cousin that met my sis the first time, got drunk then tried to touch her apparently. But I also know genetic sexual attraction is a result of not growing up with family, I’ve felt genetic sexual attraction but not acted on it in a physical sense. It’s far more than the social aspect that growing up without family can mess up imo.

[newbs16]

When I was younger I always thought I would have children but as I'm approaching my mid 30's I do not currently feel financially stable enough to have them, or emotionally as I worry about everything and would worry that I wasn't good enough to be a mother.

I'm not doubting that children bring lots of positive things to your life, but also not have them has its benefits too.

If I was to win the lottery maybe I may feel differently.

Sent from my SM-A530F using Tapatalk

[Dougella]

" I love my husband and kids - but I wish I wasn't a mother." The Guardian.

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeands...wasnt-a-mother

Some interesting responses in the comments on this, aswell as the psychotherapist's response in the article.

[Dougella]

"I went through IVF to have a baby, but if I could go back I wouldn't bother"

https://www.mirror.co.uk/lifestyle/f...wzzdx418w7kjj5

[anxiouslondoner]

For every woman that has two daughters, another female must have none. Same with men and sons. Given that in a finite universe the final population of humanity must be zero eventually. For something that is claimed to be a human right it is ultimately impossible for everyone to express that right.

[Consolida]

^^^ It's quite sad to read that some women regret having their children after trying so hard to conceive them because as a besotted mother the creation of my child is by far the most awesome thing that has ever happened in the entire universe, lol. While the early years with a child can be absolutely gruelling, that time passes by in a flash and then there comes a time when they are often very enjoyable human beings to spend time with. Hopefully the mother in the article will feel different in a few years.

^^ True, TD,P, our lives will consist of great suffering, disease and decline - especially at the end of life - but I personally think that's a small price to pay for the many moments of joy that the majority of parents experience with their offspring and plenty of children experience with their parents. If I've learnt anything recently, our one life is precious

[Orwell20]

^^ But is it? Most people's lives are pretty rubbish, all in all – stressful and unfulfilling careers, a 'make-the-best-of-things' relationship, trips to Homebase on a wet Sunday, etc. Life has odd moments of joy, but it's mostly boring or horrible. And the price we pay at the end is horrific.

My poor old grandfather's final years probably aren't uncommon. First he watched his wife of 60 years die, then he had a series of ghastly operations, then a colostomy bag, then a brain tumor (falling over in the night, not knowing where he was, calling for my dead grandmother, covered in excrement because his colostomy bag had burst). Why would anyone bring a child into the world when that's waiting for them at the end? If the 70 or 80 years before it were wonderful, maybe you could justify it. But they aren't wonderful. For most people, they are tedious and horrible. It's much better never to be born. People have children purely for themselves. When teenagers scream, "I hate you, I wish I'd never been born," their parents roll their eyes. I don't know why. Their children are right to be angry.

Put it this way, if people could see every single thing that is going to happen to their unborn child all laid out in front of them – every single experience right up to the child's old age and death – I wonder how many of them would still go through with it?

[Scurrilous Rumour]

Orwell20, I have to say your description is a very grim and narrow view of life. Perhaps it stems from your own personal outlook at the moment, but as Consolida is pointing out, life has an enormous amount of potential joy in it and to focus only on misery, illness and death is to miss out on 99% of what life's all about. I'm guessing you are struggling to see the good stuff at the moment, and I sympathise with you, but you have to keep trying because it's worth it.

[Dougella]

Originally Posted by The Devil, Probably.

I'll repeat what I've said a thousand times before, these lefty articles only ever take a parent's - woman's - perspective. A mum's regret is one thing. But procreation is also a moral matter, one that creates life only to saddle it with the suffering, disease and decline inherent to being born without consent. Parents are basically creating an perpetual supply of flesh to throw into the furnaces of this hellscape earth - keeping the malignant nightmare going.

Parents may regret having children because now holiday's are more inconvenient. They should also apologise to their unfortunate progeny for their wayward ways.

The reason that the articles are often from a woman's perspective (I have read some abou men too though) is that having children is overly romanticised for women. We're still being told that there's no other love like it, and "you'll feel different when it's your own children" and it's what women's bodies are made to do! And unsurprisingly some women come to find out that what they were told would happen, they they would be totally fulfilled by having children, is understandably not the case.

Men are not expected to feel completely fulfilled in life just by having kids.

[Dougella]

Originally Posted by Orwell20

^^ But is it? Most people's lives are pretty rubbish, all in all – stressful and unfulfilling careers, a 'make-the-best-of-things' relationship, trips to Homebase on a wet Sunday, etc. Life has odd moments of joy, but it's mostly boring or horrible. And the price we pay at the end is horrific.

My poor old grandfather's final years probably aren't uncommon. First he watched his wife of 60 years die, then he had a series of ghastly operations, then a colostomy bag, then a brain tumor (falling over in the night, not knowing where he was, calling for my dead grandmother, covered in excrement because his colostomy bag had burst). Why would anyone bring a child into the world when that's waiting for them at the end? If the 70 or 80 years before it were wonderful, maybe you could justify it. But they aren't wonderful. For most people, they are tedious and horrible. It's much better never to be born. People have children purely for themselves. When teenagers scream, "I hate you, I wish I'd never been born," their parents roll their eyes. I don't know why. Their children are right to be angry.

Put it this way, if people could see every single thing that is going to happen to their unborn child all laid out in front of them – every single experience right up to the child's old age and death – I wonder how many of them would still go through with it?

This is why I have never and will never go to homebase on a Sunday.

[Consolida]

^ Me neither

[Mr. Nobody]

^^ ^

Yip, .. you haven't truly experienced suburban desolation until you've sat in a DIY superstore coffee shop sipping tepid latte on a Sunday afternoon, whilst people blankly walk past wheeling trolleys full of emulsion tins and pots of price-reduction withered plants.

[Dougella]

^ I mean some people enjoy DIY and if so great, but don't go traipsing round a store if it makes you miserable!

[Scurrilous Rumour]

Originally Posted by Dougella

Men are not expected to feel completely fulfilled in life just by having kids.

True, but as a male who has passed his half century without having children I can say that I feel I've missed out. I know lots of people don't want to have children, but I doubt anybody over 40 without children doesn't have occasional 'what if?' thoughts. I mean, I could be a grandfather by now, which seems ludicrous to me. What would that version of me be like? Quite different I should think, at least in some ways.

The only other person I'm friends with who is my age (roughly) and doesn't have children is a female work colleague, and she likes to make jokes about motherhood softening women's brains - apparently women's brains shrink when they have children. (Hey, don't kill the messenger, it's biological fact.) But I am much too tactful to ask her if she would have liked to have had children herself. That question can prod all sorts of emotional unexploded bombs.

Anyway, I've veered slightly off piste with this post, but I guess my point is that although women are expected to be more fulfilled than men by having children, the reality is probably less clear-cut.

[Dougella]

^ I'm sorry you feel you missed out. Obviously it is possible for men to have children well beyond the age of 40, so men do still have an opportunity to have them at an older age than women do.

I've read that motherhood affects women's brains too,must be the hormones and sleep deprivation!

You're right, for men who want to have children I'm sure they do find fulfilment in it and some men must have sadness if they wanted to have children but it never happened.

[Finlay]

I do a bit. I actually feel bad for my parents because they are getting older and I worry I'll never give them the chance to be grandparents. All their brothers and sisters have been grandparents for a while now, and here are my parents coming up to their 70s and still nothing.

I know that shouldn't be a motivating factor for wanting wanting kids, but it does play on my mind. They've not said it as such, but I know them well enough that they'd like to be in the grandparent role. My mum in particular, I see her getting involved in her sister's grandkids, sharing pictures and stories like they were her own grandkids. I feel so bad for her For them both. They worked all their lives and can imagine they pictured themselves in retirement spending Christmases and Birthdays shopping for their grandkids which I've not gave them.

Still, I've got time! Ain't over till it's over.

[Amara 94]

No, not at the moment.

[Dougella]

^^ I'm one of three siblings, my parents are 70 and nearly 70 and still no grandchildren for them yet even though one of my brothers is married and I'm in a long term relationship. I've told both my parents that I'm not planning on having any children and they seemed to accept that. There shouldn't be any pressure for people to provide grandchildren for their parents and for some people even though they'd like them it just never happens. Try not to worry about it too much!

[Dougella]

"A third of new mothers traumatised by childbirth. Good communication during and after birth can help women with PTSD."

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...ion-women-ptsd

I've always thought just from watching programmes like One Born Every minute that childbirth often seems traumatising, but until recently the concept that birth could cause PTSD considered. As the article says experiences during birth can be a big factor in women developing Post Natal Depression too.