If you've decided not to have kids, what's the main reason?

[Dougella]

^ Yes indeed.

[Moksha]

Originally Posted by Dougella

. But the circumstances that they're in seem to contribute a lot to that regret, if they were in a supportive partnership or they had help from family or more options for childcare etc etc then maybe they would feel differently

I’m sure that’s true in some cases. But I suspect that the majority of people who regret having kids (or, rather, who regret being parents - most people don’t want to send him/her back, they just don’t like the experience of parenting) regret it for other reasons. Some people are born to have kids. They just have that nurturing, caring instinct, and they love the whole thing, even the bad bits. And that includes single mums, people scraping by on minimum wage, etc. But a hell of a lot of people who DO have money and support still regret it. I’d say temperament matters more than circumstances. If you really, really want kids, you’ll enjoy it, even if your partner leaves and you’ve got no money. Equally, if you have everything (big house, money, loving family, etc), but never really wanted to be a parent, it will be awful.

Ask any therapist and they will tell you that they constantly deal with a certain type of woman. She is 36-40, intelligent, popular, attractive and educated. She never really wanted kids, and never played with dolls or anything like that as a child. But then all her friends started marrying, getting pregnant and buying houses in the country. She began to panic, felt left out, didn’t want to grow old alone, and so had a kid with a guy she’d only been seeing for six months. And oh my god she ****ing hates it. She never thought it would be like this. First off, the father is a boring, unsupportive twat. If she’d met him at 25, she would have dumped him after a few weeks. But her mum kept telling her he was nice, that he’d got a good job and would make a great dad...Ugghh. She has no time to herself, hasn’t read a book for two years, is sick of the noise and smell and mess, feels fat and ugly, has lost her career, hates being dependent on her partner for money, and so on. That situation is SO common.

[Moksha]

For me, shame is another major reason. Parents often tell their children stories about their past - how they stood up to the school bully, what it was like to live in Japan, how they went backpacking round India, the crazy things they got up to at university, or in the army, and so on. I’ve done nothing with my life. In fact, I’ve spent most of it hiding away. I don’t think I could look my children in the face.

[AnxiousExtrovert]

^ I think youre missing out a huge part of the equation unless the person is a sociopath or extremely selfish. Yes for sure there would be people who have kids by following a trend or because its the thing to do.

The trend of it being normal to have kids in our lives is I am sure how most people think (without overthinking) until parenthood. But once they have children there will be a bonding process and a realization that you have brought a small person into this world who has your own DNA. And for most people (I believe) that will then take priority over anything you are talking about. The responsibility and care to nurture that person through life with the knowledge of the cruelty or hurdles yourself knows about into a functioning healthy adult.

There will of course be people who didn't think about it properly before having kids. In fact you could argue that would be the majority. And for some of those people who are on the selfish scale they may think things like you put. For the overwhelming majority of others I assume they will think more what I have put. Needless to say it is clearly irresponsible for a parent to be having kids if they are selfish.

Correct me if I am wrong but from reading between the lines of what youre putting you are picking up that people are having kids out of a trend than anything else?

I would definitely agree though that regardless of the persons intention, you can argue that some people are not having children from the point of view of the best interest of the child. That might mean they are ignorant or immature but its not the same thing to me as what you are saying.

[Moksha]

Originally Posted by AnxiousExtrovert

^ I think youre missing out a huge part of the equation unless the person is a sociopath or extremely selfish. Yes for sure there would be people who have kids by following a trend or because its the thing to do

Correct me if I am wrong but from reading between the lines of what youre putting you are picking up that people are having kids out of a trend than anything

No, no, I didn’t mean people have kids because they are following some kind of trend. I meant that they don’t want to be left out. They get to their mid-late 30s and find friends drifting away from them. Everyone is marrying off and starting families and it scares them (it scares me). They think “sh*t...my friends now have their kids, they don’t need me anymore. I’m going to have no one. I’m going to grow old alone.” Then they panic and marry someone they’ve only been dating for a few months. Three years later they are stuck with a partner they don’t love and a child they don’t really want. Happens all the time. But it isn’t the wish to be part of the in-crowd. It’s fear of being left out in the cold.

[AnxiousExtrovert]

^ I think there is a lot of biology missing from what you're saying though.

Undoubtedly there will be people who have children through the fear of missing out. That also doesn't mean they don't want or wouldnt fully embrace all that comes with it. That also applies to so many other things besides kids.
But there are real biological and social reasons why people have the urge and want children. You and I would not be here if not. Family is extremely important to lots of people for obvious reasons.

A far more common thing I can imagine being encountered is people regretting the marriage who the children were with or feeling they had kids too young because they didn't do certain things they wanted. That again is totally different to regret on having kids though.

But I think parents regretting having the child is more on the rare side because of that bonding and that lack of selfishness that kicks in. If someone was to say "i wish I didnt have a mum" because the mum was sick and a burden in their eyes that's obviously a very selfish thing to say and I would say uncommon.
For someone to say it regarding their children would be the equivalent or perhaps worse because they really did have a choice. Life isn't all about us but of course we need our own things to keep us functioning and relatively happy. But its about compromise so a lot of these things being mentioned is in my opinion about someones perspective being way off if they are happening.
And if their perspective is that way to the point they are openly saying it then to me it obviously means they shouldn't have had kids because its clearly unfair on the child.

[Moksha]

^^ The hormone thing is very true. I don’t have kids, so have no idea what it’s like, but I’ve been told something clicks and you become psycho-protective. I guess that’s just nature/evolution. If we didn’t feel that way we’d abandon them for a hyena to eat!

But feeling that urge to protect isn’t the same as enjoying being a parent. Most of us have had the experience of loving a family member but not really liking them. And I’m sure many people love their kids, and would fight to protect them, yet really don’t like being a parent. I mean the actual experience - being trapped, having no space or time, etc.

I know for sure that therapists encounter this all the time. Again and again they have women in their late 30s or early 40s who tell them the same thing: “I felt bullied/pressured/tricked. I should have trusted my gut instinct. I never wanted kids, but then all my friends started having them and I panicked. I didn’t want to grow old alone. But it’s awful. I’m just not cut out for it.”

No doubt you are right. I’m sure many DO find they enjoy it in spite of everything. But a hell of a lot don’t. The one thing most parents seem to agree on is that it’s much harder than they expected.

[Mellie]

1. Cost too much
2. They need constant looking after & I can barely look after myself let alone a kid..
3. Noisy and irritating.
4. Don’t want them ending up shy and anxious wreck like me.

[AnxiousExtrovert]

@ Moksha, the examples you are using I dont think are common. And those exact examples are people who selfishly had kids for the wrong reasons which despite the anecdotal evidence of it being distressing to the person. The main part is its completely wrong for the kids.

But also the thinking you are using can be applied to so much. Do you think most people skip their way to work and have the absolute best time imaginable? Do people care for others because of the joy it brings themself? Do people do the chores out of excitement and fulfillment?
And again the example of looking after sick family, Im sure many a therapy session could be filled if the person sees it purely as a missed opportunity to be watching netflix instead.

If most people are buying pets to look good in the xmas photo but then feel let down that they need to buy it food and take it for walks then they are obviously buying the pet for the wrong reason. Does this need to be analyzed or a therapy session for them to understand that? If so then therapy would surely conclude that the world doesnt revolve around them?

Parenting is hard and it takes a level of care, consideration outside of yourself and ideally wisdom to do it. Yes I have no doubt lots struggle with it but there are obviously rewards , I dont understand anything more to it than that really. If someone couldnt understand the rewards or doesnt get any reward then its obviously not for them and more importantly not good for the child.

I think what youre talking about is more to do with the character of the person which if they had that type of character would likely be encountering other similar problems outside of kids.

[Dougella]

Originally Posted by Moksha

^^ The hormone thing is very true. I don’t have kids, so have no idea what it’s like, but I’ve been told something clicks and you become psycho-protective. I guess that’s just nature/evolution. If we didn’t feel that way we’d abandon them for a hyena to eat!

But feeling that urge to protect isn’t the same as enjoying being a parent. Most of us have had the experience of loving a family member but not really liking them. And I’m sure many people love their kids, and would fight to protect them, yet really don’t like being a parent. I mean the actual experience - being trapped, having no space or time, etc.

I know for sure that therapists encounter this all the time. Again and again they have women in their late 30s or early 40s who tell them the same thing: “I felt bullied/pressured/tricked. I should have trusted my gut instinct. I never wanted kids, but then all my friends started having them and I panicked. I didn’t want to grow old alone. But it’s awful. I’m just not cut out for it.”

No doubt you are right. I’m sure many DO find they enjoy it in spite of everything. But a hell of a lot don’t. The one thing most parents seem to agree on is that it’s much harder than they expected.

I remember reading an article a while ago in The Guardian (yes, sorry) where people were talking about a similar thing to what you're describing, that they'd had a child and found out that they really weren't cut out for parenting. Obviously these were people who did carry on parenting their child and just did the best they could, even admitting their feelings when their children were adults.

[AnxiousExtrovert]

Originally Posted by Dougella

I remember reading an article a while ago in The Guardian (yes, sorry) where people were talking about a similar thing to what you're describing, that they'd had a child and found out that they really weren't cut out for parenting. Obviously these were people who did carry on parenting their child and just did the best they could, even admitting their feelings when their children were adults.

I'm sure it happens where people make a decision and realize how wrong they got it. I cant imagine it being that common because its obviously a very serious thing to get wrong.
I think I gave an example earlier in the thread about someone volunteering to hold the line. There is obviously other analogies but the point being in that parenting isn't like having a go at something and then deciding "oh thats not really my cup of tea" lol.

It takes some level of thought into it because you are responsible for another life that you have brought into this world.

Now the part about people thinking the above but still carrying on with their parenting duties to their fullest. The 2 things arent in my view that compatible to being a good parent. But I am aware it happens because I myself am a kid of a parent like that.

[Indigo_]

Originally Posted by Nanuq

I do wonder where you would get information like this? It's just an imagined scenario.

I thought the same thing

[Dougella]

Originally Posted by AnxiousExtrovert

I'm sure it happens where people make a decision and realize how wrong they got it. I cant imagine it being that common because its obviously a very serious thing to get wrong.
I think I gave an example earlier in the thread about someone volunteering to hold the line. There is obviously other analogies but the point being in that parenting isn't like having a go at something and then deciding "oh thats not really my cup of tea" lol.

It takes some level of thought into it because you are responsible for another life that you have brought into this world.

Now the part about people thinking the above but still carrying on with their parenting duties to their fullest. The 2 things arent in my view that compatible to being a good parent. But I am aware it happens because I myself am a kid of a parent like that.

I agree, I am too. If a parent isn't engaged with parenting their child, or they're absent physically or mentally, or they're just counting down the days until their child leaves home that is going to have a negative effect on the child. Obviously my own experiences somewhat colour my opinions on this subject.

I mean let's be honest there are parents who walk out and abandon their kids, it happens.

Then again there are people who are worried that they won't be a good parent but when they have a child they find they absolutely love it and wish they'd done it earlier!

[Moksha]

I used to write articles for a health and psychology website, called ‘HealthGuidance’, and several covered parenting. I printed off and kept material from The Guardian, New York Times, etc, on the psychological impact of having kids. One of them was written by a therapist, detailing precisely the kinds of experiences I described above. If you like I’ll start putting links and sources at the bottom of my replies.

[AnxiousExtrovert]

Originally Posted by Dougella

I agree, I am too. If a parent isn't engaged with parenting their child, or they're absent physically or mentally, or they're just counting down the days until their child leaves home that is going to have a negative effect on the child.

Yes it happens for sure and my mother is an example of it.

But I have had lots of friends in my life, Lots of friends or associates have become parents, and I have spent time with lots of other families.

Of course everyone has their flaws and some of these people I would consider quite selfish people too but I cant think of anyone I know who doesn't have a strong bias and care for their children. And that part is the relevance to me regarding this thread. When you have that care, bond and instinct to put your childs needs before your own to a significant level that's a lot of the job done.

Thats why I find the statistics in the 70% range hard to believe.

I don't really understand how its particularly likely that someone would be feeling the above but still complaining about their own interests being hindered by having children. To me its not a situation you can really do that and understand the significance of being a parent at the same time.

Now if depression or significant life factors come into play you can totally understand why someone would find parenting really testing at times. But that's a different subject entirely.

Again to me if someone's character is such that they would be having children but bemoaning the responsibilities of children and they have no self awareness, they are likely to be having plenty of similar issues in other areas of their life.

[Jen.]

Originally Posted by Moksha

I used to write articles for a health and psychology website, called ‘HealthGuidance’, and several covered parenting. I printed off and kept material from The Guardian, New York Times, etc, on the psychological impact of having kids. One of them was written by a therapist, detailing precisely the kinds of experiences I described above. If you like I’ll start putting links and sources at the bottom of my replies.

You had to research articles in order to put off negative comments? Surely the motivation to do research when writing articles would be so that you're informed about the subject and have material from which to base your opinion on. Either way, it probably would be helpful for you to put links and sources if you don't want people to believe you're doing nothing more than running wild with your imagination, as seems to be the case with your extremely specific descriptions of imaginary people and scenarios.

[AnxiousExtrovert]

Originally Posted by Nanuq

@ AnxiousExtrovert, I had a look at some articles about it and it seems that in Germany they did a study and found 8% of people regretted having children, which is still a lot of people, I'm not sure whether that took into account a sliding scale of regret ie they regretted it at the time or felt it negatively impacted their life/career but then reconciled to it, or whether that was a 'yep, totally got it wrong' regret, but it's nothing like 70%... not sure where that number was plucked from

Yeah its still higher than you'd hope but hey, its not totally shocking. To me its more a reflection of someone's mindset being completely inappropriate for the situation with unfair and drastic consequences for the child.

[AnxiousExtrovert]

Originally Posted by Moksha

No, no, I didn’t mean people have kids because they are following some kind of trend. I meant that they don’t want to be left out. They get to their mid-late 30s and find friends drifting away from them. Everyone is marrying off and starting families and it scares them (it scares me). They think “sh*t...my friends now have their kids, they don’t need me anymore. I’m going to have no one. I’m going to grow old alone.” Then they panic and marry someone they’ve only been dating for a few months. Three years later they are stuck with a partner they don’t love and a child they don’t really want. Happens all the time. But it isn’t the wish to be part of the in-crowd. It’s fear of being left out in the cold.

I agree this does happen a fair amount.

But to me its a seperate argument from people not respecting, understanding or rejecting parenthood. Its something more going on with the persons judgement of character or as you put it wanting to be "normal". Its kind of a totally different subject to me although sometimes it can overlap if the person really only does it for that reason. Now if it really was happening 70% of all cases of child birth then there would obviously be a lot of people out there with very questionable morals or thinking.

[Dougella]

Originally Posted by Moksha

I used to write articles for a health and psychology website, called ‘HealthGuidance’, and several covered parenting. I printed off and kept material from The Guardian, New York Times, etc, on the psychological impact of having kids. One of them was written by a therapist, detailing precisely the kinds of experiences I described above. If you like I’ll start putting links and sources at the bottom of my replies.

Moksha, in the course of your research did you ever happen across this book?

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Regretting-.../dp/1623171377

"Regretting Motherhood: A Study." by Orna Donath.
She is a sociologist who interviewed lots of women about their feelings of regret about having children.

[AnxiousExtrovert]

Originally Posted by Dougella

Moksha, in the course of your research did you ever happen across this book?

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Regretting-.../dp/1623171377

"Regretting Motherhood: A Study." by Orna Donath.
She is a sociologist who interviewed lots of women about their feelings of regret about having children.

I still find the 70% figures hard to believe but all of that was really besides the point for me. It mentions in that book description about it being a taboo subject and this is actually a subject I think should be taboo to an extent and I'll explain why.

If someone chooses a job as a care worker for the elderly but they say they cant stand the stink or work to look after elderly people you would surely question why they have chosen to do that job with that mentality. The difference is they could leave that job and you would hope someone with the right intentions would replace them.

The child doesnt have that choice in any of that. So although it maybe understandable why some mothers or even fathers feel they made a mistake, if there were lots with those feelings it really raises bigger issues on peoples mentalities in general but with the added tragedy of an innocent child suffering for that.

[Dougella]

^ You're right, but depending on the reasons for the regret in some cases the whole situation could be improved for everyone involved. For instance a woman who regrets leaving work to stay at home with her child should have options to go back to her job, whether that involves the father giving up work and looking after the child, or them both working part time, or using childcare.

I don't think people should be encouraged to think that they just have to put up with the path that they've chosen if they find that they're not happy with it and things like advice and parenting classes could probably help with that aswell. Historically there was this idea that women should be completely happy just having and caring for children, and that's just not realistic in most cases.


On the other hand there are those people who say they hate everything about having a child or their child isn't the kind of child they wanted (had the experience of being on the receiving end of that one myself) and that's much more about the parent and their own problems, ofcourse.