"I did such and such and got better afterwards, therefore such and such works"

[slrrrrp]

It ain't necessarily so

I feel better after saying that, so it works! maybe

But seriously, how about looking for evidence that's more objective before posting that something works, or preferably, is effective?

[Grogoch]

Because people get excited that their life has improved, and want to share it.
It may have been a whole load of factors that helped them improve, so yeah it's hard to pinpoint it and provide evidence. Unless they do some research -but who can be bothered to do that when life suddenly seems good?
I don't see the harm in sharing what they think worked for them. Just don't go riding all your hopes on one person's story.

[i_like_mittens]

Originally Posted by slrrrrp

"I did such and such and got better afterwards, therefore such and such works"

That statement is true for them... so they share what works for them because it might work for others. I don't see what's wrong with that. Everyone finds different things helpful. You'll never have evidence that something can help you progress unless you try it and see for yourself.

[slrrrrp]

Originally Posted by halfemptyglass

Even though I am a scientist and do like a bit of evidence to back up claims...

I sometimes think, is there any harm in the placebo effect? I'm not talking about drugs here, but if it's just a psychological technique you can do at home, why not give it a go even if there's no evidence? I mean if some people say they have ended up happier because of it, but we won't even try it because we're too skeptical... We've got nothing to lose by trying!

What could we lose? time, energy, and emotion (and money with some of the things posted on here) that
could be better spent elsewhere; better spent on things that objectively work - the harm in using the placebo effect on things that are not objectively effective is that you decrease the placebo effect of things that are (as I'm sure you know, effective treatments have the added bonus of their own placebo response)

[slrrrrp]

Originally Posted by i_like_mittens

That statement is true for them... so they share what works for them because it might work for others. I don't see what's wrong with that. Everyone finds different things helpful. You'll never have evidence that something can help you progress unless you try it and see for yourself.

What if the improvement is temporary and I'm fooling myself? Should I be recommending things that may only be temporary and would fool others?

[TheInbetweener]

Why would someone need "evidence"? the "Evidence" would be that its helped that specific person, surely? Unless your talking about people who swear blind something works and refuse to see it doesnt on someone else because it worked for THEM, im not sure what your asking/saying mate?

Things ive done personaly have worked, and im sure there isnt any medical research or such behind it, and ive done things places like the NHS will tell you work for everyone and being subtle, was a pile of crap.

[slrrrrp]

Originally Posted by kukri

Because people get excited that their life has improved, and want to share it.

Well, they could just say that they feel their life has improved and they don't know if it's the EFT or NLP technique or the supplements or the reiki or the exercise they've been doing or whether things got better by themselves, but they feel better - and I wouldn't mind that at all.

[i_like_mittens]

Originally Posted by slrrrrp

What if the improvement is temporary and I'm fooling myself? Should I be recommending things that may only be temporary and would fool others?

You shouldn't be relying on just one thing to progress, so whether something works only temporarily or doesn't work very long on its own doesn't mean much. Most things are probably going to work only temporarily anyway... because the more you improve, the more your situation changes, you face new problems that require different approaches. At least that's how it's been for me.

Anyway, I'd rather risk fooling myself in case I do get better instead of giving up before I've started. I don't believe there is such a thing as a 'cure' so if I wait for evidence that something will save me before I try to help myself, then I'll probably never get better!

[slrrrrp]

Originally Posted by surreyger

Why would someone need "evidence"? the "Evidence" would be that its helped that specific person, surely?

Where is the evidence it helped that specific person? Perhaps it was the magic beans they recently rubbed together or perhaps they just got better by themselves.

[slrrrrp]

Originally Posted by i_like_mittens

Anyway, I'd rather risk fooling myself in case I do get better instead of giving up before I've started. I don't believe there is such a thing as a 'cure' so if I wait for evidence that something will save me before I try to help myself, then I'll probably never get better!

What have you tried that has little or no objective evidence behind it, if you don't mind me asking?

[slrrrrp]

Originally Posted by surreyger

ive done things places like the NHS will tell you work for everyone

Like what?

[slrrrrp]

Originally Posted by I Love My Cats

they are still able to make informed choices as to what they want to do and don't want to do.

How can you make an informed choice if you aren't informed about the lack of evidence to support taking a particular action?

[TheInbetweener]

No offence meant but it seems you dont believe theres an answer to your original question?

[slrrrrp]

Originally Posted by I Love My Cats

Personally if someone came on here, distraught, not knowing which way to turn and asking for some advice of where they go next, I'd rather try to welcome them and give them some encouragement.

If someone came on here, distraught, I'd want to give them good advice with reasons and evidence behind it, not something based on a mistaken interpretation of cause and effect.

[slrrrrp]

Originally Posted by surreyger

No offence meant but it seems you dont believe theres an answer to your original question?

Yes there is an answer to "how about looking for evidence that's more objective before posting that something works, or preferably, is effective?"

- the answer is that if you feel better after doing something, you don't claim that it made you feel better without good reason and you don't mislead others.

[slrrrrp]

Originally Posted by halfemptyglass

If effective things that have evidence to back them up are partially relying on the placebo effect

They aren't partially relying on the placebo effect, their effectiveness is increased by the placebo effect- they don't need the placebo effect in order to be effective.

[slrrrrp]

Originally Posted by halfemptyglass

With something as complex as mental health and behaviour, there is no simple cause and effect.

Even more reason to hold back before posting one's "it works" story

[TheInbetweener]

Originally Posted by slrrrrp

Yes there is an answer to "how about looking for evidence that's more objective before posting that something works, or preferably, is effective?"

- the answer is that if you feel better after doing something, you don't claim that it made you feel better without good reason and you don't mislead others.

Whats a beter reason than it DID make you feel beter?... and how is it misleading to others to say it helped YOU personaly?

Pretty much no point in this whole forum with this theory.

[Lindy]

Originally Posted by slrrrrp

But seriously, how about looking for evidence that's more objective before posting that something works, or preferably, is effective?

I suppose people will post what has worked for them and what they believe to have been helpful in their recovery. If someone tries an activity, for example, and they feel it's been successful, and helped them feel a bit better, it would be fair to say that this provides 'evidence' for that person, that their activity has 'worked'? It doesn't mean it will work for everyone, it would be a suggestion to try it, as it has worked for someone else.

That 'evidence' might make it worth trying the activity for others, even if it has a different outcome.

[black_mamba]

Originally Posted by slrrrrp

Even more reason to hold back before posting one's "it works" story

Does this not strike you as needlessy negative?

I understand your point about stories here not having any concrete evidence, but we have to try something (unless you don't believe in progress), and some of those things might work for unknown reasons.

Wouldn't it be tragic if no one posted their stories?

You know I have been insulted on here a few times for posting positive things, but for each person that thought I was being arrogant and showing off (ok, its only 1 person but they told me off a couple of times ) there were plenty of others who said that reading about my progress and what helped not only just inspired them, but directly helped them.

So in response to your why should people post what worked for them I say - why the hell not?

As I say, inspiration is always a nice thing to gleen from these posts, a side-benefit. Also, no one is forcing you to read them nor try what worked for them.

Mental health is complex, there are so many unknowns. There is no guaranteed cure or path for success. Not to mention the fact that SA sufferrers usually have a host of other issues as well, creating a big old fuzzy complicated web of issues. This neccessary complexity only means that there will always be more than one solution to our problems.

Also, I've dealt with mental health professionals and I've always been shocked at how little some of them understand SA, it's a bit 'new' to the mental health profession and as such it's sometimes equally as useful to get advice from other sufferrers as to what works.

I personally think it would be a tragedy if more people were put off posting what worked for them because of worries that it might be 'wasting someone's time'.

As surreyger said, that would render this entire community pointless.

[AxelFendersson]

I don't think there is any harm in people sharing their success stories, even if the route they took was one based purely on placebos and trickery, as long as they are clear that they are only sharing their own subjective experiences. Even if their accounts are not instructional or informative, then they can provide hope and inspiration for the rest of us, which can in and of itself be helpful.

I am all for evidence-based medicine, for mental health conditions as much as physical ones, and if anyone was saying that based on their anecdotal experience, some bullshit quackery was sure to work for someone else, I'd be happy to contradict them. But I don't think it's a problem if someone shares the fact that they found it helpful using a particular psychological trick to overcome their psychological problem.

[slrrrrp]

Originally Posted by AxelFendersson

I don't think there is any harm in people sharing their success stories, even if the route they took was one based purely on placebos and trickery, as long as they are clear that they are only sharing their own subjective experiences.

Nor do I want people not to share their stories - if people feel better then I'm glad and I'm interested in what they've been doing, but it's another thing to claim "such and such works" without better evidence than anecdote.

Sorry to those who think I'm being negative, that's not my intention.

[black_mamba]

Originally Posted by slrrrrp

Nor do I want people not to share their stories - if people feel better then I'm glad and I'm interested in what they've been doing, but it's another thing to claim "such and such works" without better evidence than anecdote.

Sorry to those who think I'm being negative, that's not my intention.

If by anecdote you mean the fact that something worked for someone then, that is evidence by definition.

I've toyed with the idea of writing an e-book or paper book about solutions for SA in the past, not another one like all the others, but one that readily accepts that there are gazillions of ways to treat the condition and that the medical profession is not clued up about the condition at all, sometimes even misdiagnosing or prescribing pointless meds. And that is really the thing that stopped me bothering - it's such a big hefty project, there are too many methods, too many complications, too many unknowns, too many problem in the mental health profession, that it would be a nightmare to write.

And this is why I will forever champion a place like SA UK. We need to hear those stories, we need to hear those anecdotes. Five years ago I would've done anything to try and help myself get better. I used to read this forum religiously every evening and try to absorb as much as possible. I would've stuck a cucumber up my ass if someone said it helped them. Anyway after reading the forum for a long long time, I noticed patterns: CBT was top of the list for success (esp when the person posting was generally a proactive person so I knew they had tried hard) and then a couple of books, self help tapes, specific doctors to visit, etc etc. I learned what was more successful and what was less successful, but I was grateful for ANY information.

There is a heavy insistence on CBT therapy for SA sufferrers. It worked for me but so many of my friends tried it, put in the effort, but it was not enough. Still, not a single one of my friends said it was a waste of time trying. They at least took something away from the experience, even if it was just a better understanding of what therapies could help them.

Like Alex said as long as the poster here claim it only as their own subjective experience and not to state that it will definitely work for everyone else, then there is no harm in sharing a personal success story.

[slrrrrp]

Originally Posted by black_mamba

If by anecdote you mean the fact that something worked for someone then, that is evidence by definition.

It isn't a fact that it worked, and I'm asking for better evidence than anecdote - I didn't imply it wasn't evidence, I am implying it is poor evidence.

This explains why:

"Anecdotes are unreliable for various reasons. Stories are prone to contamination by beliefs, later experiences, feedback, selective attention to details, and so on. Most stories get distorted in the telling and the retelling. Events get exaggerated. Time sequences get confused. Details get muddled. Memories are imperfect and selective; they are often filled in after the fact. People misinterpret their experiences. Experiences are conditioned by biases, memories, and beliefs, so people's perceptions might not be accurate. Most people aren't expecting to be deceived, so they may not be aware of deceptions that others might engage in. Some people make up stories. Some stories are delusions. Sometimes events are inappropriately deemed psychic simply because they seem improbable when they might not be that improbable after all. In short, anecdotes are inherently problematic and are usually impossible to test for accuracy."

http://www.skepdic.com/testimon.html

[black_mamba]

Ok.

I'm afraid that beyond the basic therapies and books, self help tapes, meditation and hypnosis, everything will be based on anecdotes.

There is no harm in posting these personal stories, it is the responsibliity of the reader to decide whether the nature of the evidence is good or not.

Granted, sometimes it's not obvious, but we have to try something, to start somewhere.

Now where did I put my cucumber?

[slrrrrp]

Originally Posted by black_mamba

And this is why I will forever champion a place like SA UK.

I like it too, I think it's helpful - I'm not negative about this place.

[Mr Ploppy]

I must admit I'm not inspired by success stories either, I don't feel that anyone shares my particular difficulties (not saying my difficulties are "worse" just different to any i've read here).

I do agree with people posting because something worked for them, nothing wrong with that.

[i_like_mittens]

Originally Posted by slrrrrp

What have you tried that has little or no objective evidence behind it, if you don't mind me asking?

Some things I've tried (some with more or less evidence): psychotherapy, self-hypnosis, cbt, yoga, exercising, eating healthy (researching about neurochemistry and nutrition), exposure therapy, hypnotherapy tapes, meditation, keeping a journal, breathing exercises, writing and following schedules and to do lists, going for first thing in the morning walks, attending meets, taking care of my appearance, writing lists of things that make me happy, listening to relaxing music when going to sleep, binaural beats, using a more positive vocabulary, acting, write positive thoughts on posted notes and stick them around the house, etc. All of which helped me btw.

Of course I'm not going to try every little obscure thing people say blindly, just what makes sense to me. Everything I've tried has had some evidence behind it. But if you research about most things, you'll find that people never agree - it worked for some and didn't work for others. There's never ultimate evidence that something works. So what qualifies as evidence to you? What would you consider worth trying?

[Mr_Bean]

people post what works for them, that might also work for others. Its up to the reader to take it with a grain of salt or whatever. Eg Hypnotherapy. I guess its like strategies for those who give up cigarettes. Some might swear by nicotine, some might say taking up a hobby helps, some might say hypnotherapy works.

[slrrrrp]

Originally Posted by I Love My Cats

If everyone thought like this, then people would come on here asking for advice and noone would respond just in case their advice might not be helpful to the person asking the question, or in case there was no definitive evidence to clearly prove their method works.

Or perhaps the people who respond would give better advice because they have thought a bit more about what are good reasons to believe in a particular method.

I don't believe no one would respond: there are people on here that can think critically about these things and know what they are talking about, there are other internet fora which are populated by people who understand the value of evidence and critical thinking (e.g. the badscience forum) - people on those sites ask for advice and get it, so why wouldn't that happen here?