"Disability payments should go to 'really disabled' - not those who suffer anxiety."

[Dougella]

That is a strange rule as like you say if someone is at risk of having a seizure all sorts of things could be dangerous and mean they need help.

I think a lot of people are put off by the whole process of applying. (I don't claim PIP either.)

[Ajax Amsterdam]

Originally Posted by erase&rewind

I'd have to agree with that, it's not the best sound bite from a politician when I slow down to read it


I agree with what you say apart from one thing really – the extra disability payment.
For example if the younger generation of anxiety sufferers are never given the extra disability payment, then they will never have to fear it being taken away and won’t have to live with the extra lack of empowerment and frustration that the current process entails. They would still receive benefits and hopefully have access to decent support system. I also like ACT, though have never heard of experiential avoidance before. So a system that helps people to develop skills of acceptance and compassion for the things they find difficult while enabling them to focus on what they value and could work towards would be beneficial. I don’t expect many will disagree with this; it’s just if an extra disability payment would help or hinder this. A poll would be interesting on this, I think more people would say it helps, (but as you say it is not black and white), but it is still an interesting discussion.

My thinking could perhaps be summarised by the following story

What Avoiding Pain Cost the Emperor Moth

A man found a cocoon of an emperor moth. He took it home so that he could watch the moth come
out of the cocoon.
On the day a small opening appeared, he sat and watched the moth for several hours, just watching
as the moth struggled to force its body through that little hole. Then it seemed to stop making any
progress. It appeared to have gotten as far as it could. It just seemed stuck.

Then the man, in his kindness, decided to help the moth. So he took a pair of scissors and snipped
off the remaining bit of the cocoon. The moth emerged easily, but it had a swollen body and small
shriveled wings. The man continued to watch. He expected that, at any moment, the wings would
enlarge and open out to be able to support the body. Neither happened! The little moth spent the
rest of its life crawling around with a swollen body and shriveled wings. It never was able to fly.

What the man in his kindness and haste didn’t understand was this: In order for the moth to fly, it
needed to experience the restricting cocoon and the painful struggle as it emerged through the tiny
opening. This was a necessary part of a process to force fluid from the body and into the wings so
that the moth would be ready for flight once it achieved freedom from the cocoon. Freedom and
flight would only come after allowing painful struggle. By depriving the moth of struggle, the man
deprived the moth of health.

Thanks for the reply.

To be honest, I don't really mind what the payment would be called. So long as the sufferer is understood, respected, have their current condition taken seriously and are paid an adequate amount on which to live then I'm happy enough. Hopefully there will be properly funded support put in place to assist their recovey too. If the system wants people to get back into the workplace then it has to adequately support that process. I don't think many MH sufferers who are in dire straits will be too bothered what their payment is called (disability or not) so long as they feel respected and supported in their time of need.

Experiential Avoidance as presented in ACT is the avoidance of our inner experience. For instance, in SA we tend to try to avoid people, places and situations. But if we dig down further, what we are really trying to avoid is our inner experiences that are triggered by those things. We are trying to avoid the feelings of fear, doubt, uncertainty, the churning stomach, the wild thoughts in our heads, the panic, the sweating, the shaking etc... SA is more of a fear of fear. An anxiety about anxiety. In our attempts to avoid those inner experiences we then avoid the situations that prompt them and we blame the situations for how we feel.

There is pretty much always a payoff for avoidance. We get immediate but short-term relief once we avoid something. It dresses itself up as a friend, but in the longer term it is the enemy. You've suggested as much in a previous post. Avoidance is addictive though, isn't it? The human being will generally always be attracted to what brings it pleasure and avoid what brings it pain. We will always be tempted to avoid emotional distress and discomfort by physically avoiding something if we can. In the past I actually found it easier to stay in my SA blackhole than go through the pain of digging myself out of it. It was only when the pain of staying the same became greater than the pain of changing that I started to progress. Basically, it was commit suicide or fight back. In the end, I fought back.

In recent times ACT has taught me to accept that a full life includes the full spectrum of human emotions. We can't have the light without the dark, the ups without the downs, the pleasure without the pain or the love without the loss. That's the deal. ACT just helps me to be open to all of my experience rather than just the bits I like. To accept what is, and to live the kind of life I value despite the pain that inevitably comes with it. So, I have become mindfull of my inner experience, but I don't let it dictate how I physically act. In short; you can still feel the fear, but you do it anyway.

Ahh, the Emperor Moth.
A good story that, and one I printed off very early in my training in counselling because it shows so clearly the importance of not trying to rescue clients. We have to trust in the client's process and understand that working through their struggle and coming through it is what empowers them and makes them stronger.

It also sort of shows that if we give people the right conditions and support, they can come through their struggles and thrive in their own right.

[firemonkey]

https://donation.labour.org.uk/index.php/actions/pip

[Sphinx]

^ People have varying degrees of anxiety though, some people find the workplace easier than others. I struggle to hold down jobs, the anxiety gets so bad I feel like I'm losing my mind.

[Dougella]

Originally Posted by quietuker

I dont believe anxiety can stop you from working, I have been at my job for nearly 5 years now and when my anxiety is at its worst I really dont feel like going in but I feel receiving handouts from the government just dampens the situation even more, basically I see it as you are setting yourself up for a hard time if you come around to applying for jobs as the workplace does not recognise anxiety and depression as an illness that stops you from working, its just how it is unfortunately.

Do you have panic attacks? Have you ever been so physically ill from anxiety that you haven't been able to leave your house? Can you eat with other people? Can you drive or use public transport? Have you ever had to get off public transport to throw up because of anxiety?.....

People's level of social phobia can vary greatly, just because your anxiety doesn't affect you to the point that you're not able to work doesn't mean that everyone is the same as you.

[Ajax Amsterdam]

Originally Posted by quietuker

I dont believe anxiety can stop you from working...

Trust me, it really can.

[wjfox]

[neilm]

^ ^ ^ ^ ^

Id have expected that from the Pre Corbyn New Labour Party, but am surprised they voted that way under the present leadership.

Unless these Lords are of the New Labour persuasion and voted against Corbyns instructions of course.

[Dougella]

^ I think it was something to do with the fact that the Lib Dem.... I'm not sure what it's called 'motion'...... was a lot less likely to be successful.

It's complicated the way things are done, I don't understand a lot of it.

[neilm]

Originally Posted by Dougella

^ I think it was something to do with the fact that the Lib Dem.... I'm not sure what it's called 'motion'...... was a lot less likely to be successful.

It's complicated the way things are done, I don't understand a lot of it.

Ah, that would explain it then.