Cure for blushing ?

[david mckenna]

Originally Posted by MasterCaster

Mate, pal and deeshow have already pointed it out. Inner and I we're being realistic not pessimistic.You contradicted yourself in saying it takes alot of hardwork and then saying its effortless

changing ur beleifs is effortless when u use TRN cos all u do is lie down and listen to the cd. it takes time to chage ur beleifs but with that method its effortless.

wot im saying is change is hard. its hard to change and break habits.

im sure innerversion sed it cud take a life time to change ur beleifs. i may be wrong but i think thats wot he sed and if he did say that then its just plain pemissimism.

if pal and deehow have sed the same as u then fine but i still disagree. i stand by my statement that changing beleifs is effortless yet time consuming and change and breaking habits is hard yet extremely achievable.

people can completely let go of their old beliefs and develop new ones. people can completely change as a person and beat say. its in no one near impossible like u are making out.

[david mckenna]

Originally Posted by Pal

That's not what they're saying though Dave, they're just saying it isn't quite as easy as you sometimes make out!!

that is wot they are saying though pal. they're saying its almost impossible.

innerversion was talking about deep rooted beleifs when he sed ''i think they are open to change, but they may take a lifetime to do so''. that is crazy, thats like saying these things are almost impossible to change . to me, for something to take a life time to change sounds next to impossible for that thing to change

master catser sed ''some beleifs are so deeply rooted they are almost unchangeable'' and ''their beleifs are so deeply rooted its almost impossible to change''

[david mckenna]

Originally Posted by deeshow

Well you are contradicting yourself there mate. So which is it? Effortless or takes a long time. It taking me years, that I know!

i sed it takes a long time to beat sa.it does.

i also sed ur beleifs arent that hard to change and changing them is effortless when u use TRN. they arent that hard to change and it is effortless with TRN

i havent contradicted myself at all. just cos u change ur beleifs doesn't mean u have CHANGED and u have beaten sa.

when a body builder is building his body he doesn't just have to eat the rite diet and then his muscles magically grow. no he also has to lift some wieghts.

its the same with wot im saying too. just cos u change ur beleifs doesn't mean uve beaten sa, u also have to do some work , some physical action which takes TIME.

u can change ur beleifs effortlessly but beating sa and changing ur actions takes times.

beleifs = effortless
beating sa = time

there is no contradiction only ur misinterpretation

[Innervision]

Originally Posted by david mckenna

ur putting a damper on people with sa by sa its not as easy to change ur beleifs as i say it is .

its hard to change , it takes effort and time but changing ur beleifs is achieveable and its not some mountain that you are expected to climb

Nope, not putting any dampner on anything.

One of the worst things that contribute to people feeling a failure is starting out with hopelessly unrealistic expectations then feeling unable to fulfil those expectations. I just prefer to keep it real than indulge in unrealistic expectations. People who have realistic expectations tend to fare far better than those who don't.

Oddly enough, you go on to pretty much say exactly what I said myself. This being that it can be hard to change, it takes effort but it is achievable. That is my take on the matter in a nutshell.

The only difference between us on this one is that you consistently appear to be making out that change is a doddle. Lets be honest, though. If it was so easy, counsellors, therapists, companies that produce medications, psychiatrists, psychologists and everyone who advocates the methods you put your own faith in would be out of business overnight. Sorry mate, but thinking that getting over stuff like deep rooted SA and suchlike is "effortless" is simply not realistic.

Originally Posted by DMc

just cos u change ur beleifs doesn't mean u have CHANGED and u have beaten sa.

This seems like a contradiction too. Why? Because you tend to make out that all we have to do to beat our problems is change how we think. You said that on the blushing thread. I believe that changing how you think is only a percentage of the battle. So anyway, in your own words here you allude to it actually being harder to bring about change than you often suggest it is.

[david mckenna]

Originally Posted by Innervision

Nope, not putting any dampner on anything.

One of the worst things that contribute to people feeling a failure is starting out with hopelessly unrealistic expectations then feeling unable to fulfil those expectations. I just prefer to keep it real than indulge in unrealistic expectations. People who have realistic expectations tend to fare far better than those who don't.

Oddly enough, you go on to pretty much say exactly what I said myself. This being that it can be hard to change, it takes effort but it is achievable. That is my take on the matter in a nutshell.

saying that changing ur beleifs is effortless when using the rite technology and saying that changing habits is hard is not hopelessly unrealistic expectations. its true and achievable

saying that changing beleifs can take a lifetime is not keeping it real. that is blowing a challenge up way to far and making it seem like a mountain which inturn is dampening peoples sprirt

[david mckenna]

Originally Posted by Innervision

Nope, not putting any dampner on anything.

One of the worst things that contribute to people feeling a failure is starting out with hopelessly unrealistic expectations then feeling unable to fulfil those expectations. I just prefer to keep it real than indulge in unrealistic expectations. People who have realistic expectations tend to fare far better than those who don't.

Oddly enough, you go on to pretty much say exactly what I said myself. This being that it can be hard to change, it takes effort but it is achievable. That is my take on the matter in a nutshell.

The only difference between us on this one is that you consistently appear to be making out that change is a doddle. Lets be honest, though. If it was so easy, counsellors, therapists, companies that produce medications, psychiatrists, psychologists and everyone who advocates the methods you put your own faith in would be out of business overnight. Sorry mate, but thinking that getting over stuff like deep rooted SA and suchlike is "effortless" is simply not realistic.



This seems like a contradiction too. Why? Because you tend to make out that all we have to do to beat our problems is change how we think. You said that on the blushing thread. I believe that changing how you think is only a percentage of the battle. So anyway, in your own words here you allude to it actually being harder to bring about change than you often suggest it is.

u avent listend to me mate. iavent sed change is a doddle. i sed change is hard and it takes years. i sed changingur beleifs is effortless (a doddle) when u use the rite technology.

beating sa is not a doddle.
changing ur beleifs is a doddle if u use the rite technology

i never sed that all we have to do to beat our problems is change how we think. i sed u have to change urself on the inside (i.e ur thinking) and also do some work, physical action.

ur thinking is the root cause, thats wot u have to tackle but u also have to take action.

changing ur thinking is the minimum requirement. u cant change without it . but once uve changed ur thinking that doesn't mean u r cured. thats only the minimum requiremnt. u also have to put in lots of effort with action.

for a body builder changing his diet is the minimum requiremnt but once he has changed his deit that doesnt meen he has got his perfect body. no he has to then take physical action of lifting weights whcih takes time, hard work and is not a doddle .

[Innervision]

Originally Posted by david mckenna

that is wot they are saying though pal. they're saying its almost impossible.

Actually, that was not what I was saying.

Originally Posted by DM

innerversion was talking about deep rooted beleifs when he sed ''i think they are open to change, but they may take a lifetime to do so''. that is crazy, thats like saying these things are almost impossible to change . to me, for something to take a life time to change sounds next to impossible for that thing to change

Crazy? Only if you are intent on totally ignoring the life experience of countless people.
I've lived long enough to see for myself just how long it has taken some people to make any impact on changing their lives for the better. I'm talking real life experience here, not someone's theory. Some people never manage to sort their lives out. This is an unavoidable fact of life. This does not mean I'm suggesting it is virtually impossible for people to change. You talk a lot of theory, but you totally dismiss real life experience as experienced by others. I'm just acknowledging unavoidable facts of life as experienced by real people. Crazy? Maybe. But that is/was their lives.

Originally Posted by DM

saying that changing ur beleifs is effortless when using the rite technology and saying that changing habits is hard is not hopelessly unrealistic expectations. its true and achievable

Who says what is the "right technology" for everyone, though? There is no one-size fits all method. If you believe there is then you have a lot to learn about people. What is right for you is not necessarily right for everyone else.

Originally Posted by DM

saying that changing beleifs can take a lifetime is not keeping it real. that is blowing a challenge up way to far and making it seem like a mountain which inturn is dampening peoples sprirt

I really wish you would hear what people say to you rather than just hear your slant on what they say. For some, changing beliefs can take a long time. How do I know? Well it took me until I was over 40 to do it myself. I also know people who have gone to the grave and still never managed to sort their lives out. I also work in a profession where I can clearly see that things are far from as cut and dried as you dress them up to be.

Just to be crystal. People can change. Some will always find it harder than others. Many will succeed. Some won't. How do I know? I observe real life. Keeping it real includes acknowledging all the angles, not just the ones that fit with your own theory.

Dampen spirits? I'm actually living proof that people can change. I was a hopeless write-off who was barely alive and always wanting to be dead. I never, and I truly mean never, ever believed I could get this far in life. I believe that in the right circumstances and with the support they feel they need, virtually anyone can make a good life for themselves. People have so many resources and abilities if only they learn how to harness and apply them. My overriding philosophy is a positive one. Despite that, I also have to tip my hat towards reality and realise that things aren't as easy as some make them out to be. Do I see things as mountains? No, not anymore. But I never under estimate a challenge either.

[Pal]

Originally Posted by david mckenna

that is wot they are saying though pal. they're saying its almost impossible.

innerversion was talking about deep rooted beleifs when he sed ''i think they are open to change, but they may take a lifetime to do so''. that is crazy, thats like saying these things are almost impossible to change . to me, for something to take a life time to change sounds next to impossible for that thing to change

master catser sed ''some beleifs are so deeply rooted they are almost unchangeable'' and ''their beleifs are so deeply rooted its almost impossible to change''

I have never once in the time i've been here seen Innervision say or even insinuate that it was almost impossible, what he has said is that it'll take time which does of course depend on the person in question. I think you're reading him wrong there.

There's also of course the fact that in some ways no one will ever be entirely ride of SA because it is a very ingrained thing but you can control and improve it to a point where you can be sociable.

I also think Master Caster is right in that some beliefs are almost impossible to change but that doesn't mean it's impossible to improve your SA to a sociable level!!

[Innervision]

Originally Posted by Nadia

The only things that cured my blushing was meds - not been on them for a while now and unfortunately am unable to contain the blushing so just make a joke out of it - 'hey look everyone I think I'm on fire'

Nadia, if you don't mind me asking ... which meds did you find effective against blushing?

I think your attitude to your current blushing issues is a really good one. Using humour is a great way of taking the sting out of the situation.

[diplodocus]

Originally Posted by david mckenna

i sed it takes a long time to beat sa.it does.

i also sed ur beleifs arent that hard to change and changing them is effortless when u use TRN. they arent that hard to change and it is effortless with TRN

i havent contradicted myself at all. just cos u change ur beleifs doesn't mean u have CHANGED and u have beaten sa.

when a body builder is building his body he doesn't just have to eat the rite diet and then his muscles magically grow. no he also has to lift some wieghts.

its the same with wot im saying too. just cos u change ur beleifs doesn't mean uve beaten sa, u also have to do some work , some physical action which takes TIME.

u can change ur beleifs effortlessly but beating sa and changing ur actions takes times.

beleifs = effortless
beating sa = time

there is no contradiction only ur misinterpretation

Well you're contradicting yourself here then!

Originally Posted by david mckenna

it takes time to chage ur beleifs but with that method its effortless.

One moment you seperate time and beliefs but the next you put them together. There's no point in arguing with you because you're too busy arguing with yourself! Let me know who wins david.

[Innervision]

Originally Posted by Pal

I have never once in the time i've been here seen Innervision say or even insinuate that it was almost impossible, what he has said is that it'll take time which does of course depend on the person in question. I think you're reading him wrong there...

I was quite tipsy earlier on when I wrote some posts on this. Since then I've been wondering if I'd worded things wrong. Looking back I still think David misread what I was saying. Maybe my fault, though, as if I'd not had a few beers too many I may have been clearer.

I think you have read me spot-on with your above quote. I've never said, and never would say that change (in this case change of thoughts/beliefs around blushing) is "almost impossible". To be honest, if I did think that I may as well give up my counselling career tonight and take up something else.

I have every faith in people and their ability to bring about change. Thing is, though: we are all different and although some may bring about change reasonably quickly, others may take a bit/lot longer to do so. Some even go through life and never truly get things sorted. To be fair, I think I'd be bullshitting people if I didn't acknowledge the fact that despite all sorts of interventions, some people still struggle greatly to bring about lasting change. And that can be so for all manner of reasons and circumstances.

On a surface level that may sound a little depressing, but hey, if we are to ever sort out our lives we have to acknowledge the realities of life. Pretending it's all perfect is as unrealistic as thinking we can never change. All we can do individually is our level best to be one of the millions of success stories out there by using our resources to change our own lives. Whatever means of support we choose is up to us.

Anyway, I believe that the overwhelming majority of people can bring about real change. I'd say 100% of people, but just observing life around me shows me that 100% is an unrealistic figure. In principle, we all have the abilities to change our lot in life. In cold reality not everyone manages it. That's all I've said, really. I don't see why acknowledging a fact of life should be seen as placing a dampener on people. As I've said before, unrealistic expectations are a killer to many an effort to instigate lasting change. This is one reason I talk indepth with my clients at the beginning of counselling about what their expectations are of it.

A few examples of unrealistic expectations may be a person thinking that only total erradication of blushing and/or SA is a success. Anything less than that being seen as failure. When in fact, a certain level of anxiety and the odd blush here and there are all natural parts of human life and can never be erradicated. My point being that we have to be realistic and deal with realities and aim for things that are achievable.

Anything is possible, and I'd never insinuate otherwise. But just because something is possible does not always mean that it takes place for everyone. It does of course stand to reason that the more we do, the more chance we have of making the necessary changes.

So David. I'm stating that change is very possible, even probable with the right input. All I'm adding is that it is not certain. Nothing in life is certain (well apart from the fact we die at some point). I'm still a bit worse for wear after my exploits on the Guinness, but I hope I've managed to clear this misunderstanding up now.

[david mckenna]

Originally Posted by Pal

I have never once in the time i've been here seen Innervision say or even insinuate that it was almost impossible, what he has said is that it'll take time which does of course depend on the person in question. I think you're reading him wrong there.

There's also of course the fact that in some ways no one will ever be entirely ride of SA because it is a very ingrained thing but you can control and improve it to a point where you can be sociable.

I also think Master Caster is right in that some beliefs are almost impossible to change but that doesn't mean it's impossible to improve your SA to a sociable level!!

if innerversion sed that some beleifs can take a lifetime to change then im sorry but that is saying that its virtually impossible to change them. for something to take that long to change must one hell of a task. it doesnt matter which way u look at it cos saying something like that is saying that it is almost impossible.

what is a negative beleif? its a false meaning that uve gave to an event. its not real, its not reality. its just something uve made up. that beleifs is attached to a memory that is stored in ur unconcious mind along ur time line. u have also gavered loads of info over the years to prove that beleif is to true. to change a beleif all u do is conciously invent a new beleif, search for new info to prove that beleif, deal with the memory on ur time line to release the old beleif , and use TRN to change things on an unconcious level.

beleifs are extremely changeable so master caster is wrong in saying that some beleifs are almost immpossible to change

hey if some beleifs are almost impossible to chnage then we all mite as well give up now. there is no hope for us to improve our lives if beleifs are that hard to chnage.

beleifs are the root cause of sa so to say that sum of them are almost impossible to change is to say its almost impossible to beat sa, so we all mite aswell give up now

[david mckenna]

Originally Posted by Nadia

The only things that cured my blushing was meds - not been on them for a while now and unfortunately am unable to contain the blushing so just make a joke out of it - 'hey look everyone I think I'm on fire'

u say uve not been on meds for a while. has the blushing returned once uve been off meds

[david mckenna]

Originally Posted by MasterCaster

People can't identify faulty and corrupted thinking very easily. People are oblivious to how destructive their own thinking is to them. They are totally engrossed in why people are reacting a certain way to them, or why they still feel anxious despite trying all these different thing's. In theory old beliefs are changeable but you only have to look on this boards to realise that some people are in a residual coma concerning reality. You seem to overlook the tempestuous nature of people and that its actually very difficult to gain any clarity in the mind when your bouncing from one emotion to the next. You develop the necessary tools overtime and with inconsistent progress. Progress is not one linear curvature to the top. The reason it takes so long is because old beliefs try to monopolise the mind, the stronger those old beliefs, the harder they are to uproot and require as someone once said here a 'constant commitment to reality'.

Not in peoples nature to suddenly go through some kind of cathartic change in which they miraculously awaken from their mental prision overnight. Although some people do make major changes to their behaviour very quickly and move on much faster than others. Generally speaking, bad habits die hard

habits do die hard. habits are hard to break but beleifs are easy to change. to suggest that some are almost impossible to change or some may take a life time to change is not only just plain wrong and quite frankly ridiculous but its dampening to people hopes and spirit

[david mckenna]

Originally Posted by deeshow

Well you're contradicting yourself here then!


One moment you seperate time and beliefs but the next you put them together. There's no point in arguing with you because you're too busy arguing with yourself! Let me know who wins david.

wot are u on about ?

beleifs are effortless to change but its time consuming. chnaging habits is hard.

weres the contradiction? i just cant see it !!!!!!!!

[david mckenna]

Originally Posted by Innervision

I was quite tipsy earlier on when I wrote some posts on this. Since then I've been wondering if I'd worded things wrong. Looking back I still think David misread what I was saying. Maybe my fault, though, as if I'd not had a few beers too many I may have been clearer.

I think you have read me spot-on with your above quote. I've never said, and never would say that change (in this case change of thoughts/beliefs around blushing) is "almost impossible". To be honest, if I did think that I may as well give up my counselling career tonight and take up something else.

I have every faith in people and their ability to bring about change. Thing is, though: we are all different and although some may bring about change reasonably quickly, others may take a bit/lot longer to do so. Some even go through life and never truly get things sorted. To be fair, I think I'd be bullshitting people if I didn't acknowledge the fact that despite all sorts of interventions, some people still struggle greatly to bring about lasting change. And that can be so for all manner of reasons and circumstances.

On a surface level that may sound a little depressing, but hey, if we are to ever sort out our lives we have to acknowledge the realities of life. Pretending it's all perfect is as unrealistic as thinking we can never change. All we can do individually is our level best to be one of the millions of success stories out there by using our resources to change our own lives. Whatever means of support we choose is up to us.

Anyway, I believe that the overwhelming majority of people can bring about real change. I'd say 100% of people, but just observing life around me shows me that 100% is an unrealistic figure. In principle, we all have the abilities to change our lot in life. In cold reality not everyone manages it. That's all I've said, really. I don't see why acknowledging a fact of life should be seen as placing a dampener on people. As I've said before, unrealistic expectations are a killer to many an effort to instigate lasting change. This is one reason I talk indepth with my clients at the beginning of counselling about what their expectations are of it.

A few examples of unrealistic expectations may be a person thinking that only total erradication of blushing and/or SA is a success. Anything less than that being seen as failure. When in fact, a certain level of anxiety and the odd blush here and there are all natural parts of human life and can never be erradicated. My point being that we have to be realistic and deal with realities and aim for things that are achievable.

Anything is possible, and I'd never insinuate otherwise. But just because something is possible does not always mean that it takes place for everyone. It does of course stand to reason that the more we do, the more chance we have of making the necessary changes.

So David. I'm stating that change is very possible, even probable with the right input. All I'm adding is that it is not certain. Nothing in life is certain (well apart from the fact we die at some point). I'm still a bit worse for wear after my exploits on the Guinness, but I hope I've managed to clear this misunderstanding up now.

i just beleive that if u say some beleifs can take a lifetime to change then u r basically saying its almost impossible to change them. i dont see how i cud or misunderstand u or misinterpreted u.

how else am i supposed to take ''some beleifs may take a lifetime to change''? i cant think of antother way to take that apart from it being almost impossible to change them

[Innervision]

Originally Posted by Nadia

Hi Inner, The meds that were so effective regarding blushing were citalopram - unbelievable, I never ever blushed while taking them.

I have to make a joke out of blushing as I work in a very busy office and prefer colleagues/mates to laugh with me rather than at me & it works really well

Hi Nadia,

Thanks for the reply.

I take Escitalopram (newer version of what you were on) and I also found that my blushing decreased. I was never sure if this was down solely to the meds, solely down to the cognitive work I'd been doing on my blushing, or a combination of both factors.

It's good to hear that Citalopram really helped with your blushing. I have to say once again that I think your attitude to blushing is superb. I know through painful experience and humiliation just how difficult it can be to get our heads around blushing in order to deal with it. So developing such a healthy attitude towards it as you have done is pretty cool.

As is often the case in life ... it's not the situation, it's how we deal with it that really counts.

*Tips hat to Nadia*

[david mckenna]

Originally Posted by MasterCaster

its exhausting chatting to you mate, really

well we'll leave it there then. ive made a valid point i really have . people suffering with SA dont need other people dampening theier spirits by giving them false information

[david mckenna]

Originally Posted by MasterCaster

I think what you mean by that is you don't want other people dampening your spirits

no wot i mean is i dont want u dampenining other peoples spirits.

you cant dampen my spirtis especially by saying things that have no truth in them (e.g beleifs are almost impossible to change)

in just over 4 months ive almost completely eradecated all of my limiting beleifs around being the centre of attention. ive seen the results for myself and reaped the rewards so how can someone talking nonsense about beleifs dampen my own spirits.

theres a lot of people on this site who are lost , young and confused (just like i used to be years ago) and they dont have any hope for overcoming SA and they dont know how to do it (been there myself to )

so i just dont like people saying false things on this site that dampens those peoples spirits.

dont worry about me mate im high as a kite, theres nothing out there that is ever gonna dampen my spirit

[Innervision]

Originally Posted by david mckenna

i just beleive that if u say some beleifs can take a lifetime to change then u r basically saying its almost impossible to change them. i dont see how i cud or misunderstand u or misinterpreted u.

how else am i supposed to take ''some beleifs may take a lifetime to change''? i cant think of antother way to take that apart from it being almost impossible to change them

I'm not sure how much clearer I can make myself, but I'll have another go.

For some people, it can take them a very long time to overturn long-held and deeply rooted beliefs. I'm not suggesting this is the case for all.

How can I say this? Well the history of human beings and human experience proves this completely. So yes, some beliefs within some people have proved hard to shift before, and in some cases this will be so in future as it is in the present. This is an unescapable fact of life.

Even for such people, nothing is impossible. It's just more difficult, and as such will probably take more time to achieve. As I said before, if I did actually believe that people cannot change and improve their lives, I would be now working in totally the wrong profession. As it happens, my philosophy includes the belief that people certainly can change their lives for the better with the appropriate input and support where they feel support is needed.

You are suggesting that me saying that something may take a lot of time to achieve for some people, equates to me actually saying that it is near on impossible. This is catagorically not what I'm saying, though. You are equating time and difficulty with impossibility. Wrongly in my opinion. Any significant challenge in life will include an element of difficulty and a period of time to complete. This does not mean it is impossible, though. For some it will be a longer and more challenging (difficult) experience than it will for others. At no point do I suggest it is imposible or nearly impossibe.

Originally Posted by David Mc

beleifs are effortless to change but its time consuming. chnaging habits is hard.

weres the contradiction? i just cant see it !!!!!!!!

The very fact that it is time consuming suggests that to succeed there needs to be a certain level of consistent effort, motivation, perseverence etc. No mean feat for people who generally suffer a distinct lack of self-belief, confidence, esteem, mental/emotional stamina, fluctuating moods, depressive episodes etc etc..

So there lies the potential difficulty in changing thoughts and beliefs. Not impossible of course. Still very much achievable, but "effortless"? I think not. Although you may have found it effortless in your case. If you found it so effortless you are either one hell of a gifted guy, or a very lucky guy.

It does seem contradictory to suggest that all the above actually equates to an effortless journey. We are not robots that can just have a new operating system instaled that changes the way we work. Changing our operating system (the way we think) takes time and no shortage of input and concerted effort. So no, it's not "effortless" at all. If it were, CBT therapists and suchlike would be instantly out of business.

[david mckenna]

Originally Posted by Innervision

I'm not sure how much clearer I can make myself, but I'll have another go.

For some people, it can take them a very long time to overturn long-held and deeply rooted beliefs. I'm not suggesting this is the case for all.

How can I say this? Well the history of human beings and human experience proves this completely. So yes, some beliefs within some people have proved hard to shift before, and in some cases this will be so in future as it is in the present. This is an unescapable fact of life.

Even for such people, nothing is impossible. It's just more difficult, and as such will probably take more time to achieve. As I said before, if I did actually believe that people cannot change and improve their lives, I would be now working in totally the wrong profession. As it happens, my philosophy includes the belief that people certainly can change their lives for the better with the appropriate input and support where they feel support is needed.

You are suggesting that me saying that something may take a lot of time to achieve for some people, equates to me actually saying that it is near on impossible. This is catagorically not what I'm saying, though. You are equating time and difficulty with impossibility. Wrongly in my opinion. Any significant challenge in life will include an element of difficulty and a period of time to complete. This does not mean it is impossible, though. For some it will be a longer and more challenging (difficult) experience than it will for others. At no point do I suggest it is imposible or nearly impossibe.



The very fact that it is time consuming suggests that to succeed there needs to be a certain level of consistent effort, motivation, perseverence etc. No mean feat for people who generally suffer a distinct lack of self-belief, confidence, esteem, mental/emotional stamina, fluctuating moods, depressive episodes etc etc..

So there lies the potential difficulty in changing thoughts and beliefs. Not impossible of course. Still very much achievable, but "effortless"? I think not. Although you may have found it effortless in your case.

It does seem contradictory to suggest that all the above actually equates to an effortless journey. We are not robots that can just have a new operating system instaled that changes the way we work. Changing our operating system (the way we think) takes time and no shortage of input and concerted effort. So no, it's not "effortless" at all. If it were, CBT therapists and suchlike would be instantly out of business.

it is effortless with trn. that robot thing analogy is true. we are like robots and we can have a new operating system installed that changes the way we work. that is wot CBT and TRN are all about. the human mind has many times been compared to a computer.

our minds filter an event in a nano second through are beleifs which creates our internal representation of the event (self talk, internal images, our focus and percetion). that internal representation then creates our state (happy, sad, anxious, confident etc...) and then state influences our behaviour. this all happens in a nano second and we find ourselves behaving automatically like robots as if we have no choice in how we think , feel and act

the whole point of cbt is to change that filtering process so that eventually we are able to automatically bahave in a certain way as a result of our new internal representaion

[Innervision]

David, as you are clearly intent on not even acknowledging any point I make I think I'll leave it there. I don't know if I'd rather have my mind or yours. Everything seems so effortless and easy in yours.

[Pal]

Originally Posted by david mckenna

if innerversion sed that some beleifs can take a lifetime to change then im sorry but that is saying that its virtually impossible to change them. for something to take that long to change must one hell of a task. it doesnt matter which way u look at it cos saying something like that is saying that it is almost impossible.

what is a negative beleif? its a false meaning that uve gave to an event. its not real, its not reality. its just something uve made up. that beleifs is attached to a memory that is stored in ur unconcious mind along ur time line. u have also gavered loads of info over the years to prove that beleif is to true. to change a beleif all u do is conciously invent a new beleif, search for new info to prove that beleif, deal with the memory on ur time line to release the old beleif , and use TRN to change things on an unconcious level.

beleifs are extremely changeable so master caster is wrong in saying that some beleifs are almost immpossible to change

hey if some beleifs are almost impossible to chnage then we all mite as well give up now. there is no hope for us to improve our lives if beleifs are that hard to chnage.

beleifs are the root cause of sa so to say that sum of them are almost impossible to change is to say its almost impossible to beat sa, so we all mite aswell give up now

On the surface that's probably true, on the surface beliefs can appear to be very easy to change, underneath i'd say they are much harder. If Innervision was suggesting that these beliefs were impossible to change it would make him among the worse councillers in the country, that isn't what he's suggesting though, he is simply saying that beliefs can that a lifetime to change but that shouldn't impact on anyone improving their SA to a decent or even excellent degree.

Remember even the most socially confident people have negative beliefs about themselves, the difference is they don't let those beliefs bother them or get in the way of their confidence.

[david mckenna]

Originally Posted by Pal

On the surface that's probably true, on the surface beliefs can appear to be very easy to change, underneath i'd say they are much harder. If Innervision was suggesting that these beliefs were impossible to change it would make him among the worse councillers in the country, that isn't what he's suggesting though, he is simply saying that beliefs can that a lifetime to change but that shouldn't impact on anyone improving their SA to a decent or even excellent degree.

Remember even the most socially confident people have negative beliefs about themselves, the difference is they don't let those beliefs bother them or get in the way of their confidence.

thats ridiculous. beleifs are the root cause of SA. u cant make strides with ur SA without getting rid of ur negative beleifs.

u cant build ur muscles whilst eating junk and u cant build ur social confidence whilst feeding ur mind with mental junk