Incapacity Benefit stopped!

[Hello Earth]

I cannot believe this. What sort of idiots run this damn thing, are they cracking down on people without actually giving it any thought whatsoever? :rolleyes:

You have a point system, right, and I got ONE more (or less, I can't remember how it works now) point than I should have done. Some of the questions are so black and white, I can't believe it - for example, "can you walk more than 800 metres without needing help" or some such nonsense - Err, I can walk 8 miles without help, if it's in an isolated location, but I can barely walk more than 8 FEET without needing help in a busy area, and I still can't go into town or in shops on my own. How can you word a question like that? This probably stems from me telling them I take walks along the beach near my house, which is RIGHT next to my house and I generally avoid people.

The woman who came round to assess me about a month ago basically told me I was in a right state and needed serious help, so HOW on Earth has this happened?

Another thing I got annoyed with was "do you spend hours doing nothing", and because the answer is no it goes against me. Just cause I spend time reading or whatever! What utter crap.

Has this happened to anyone else here? I really hope it doesn't take long to sort out. I hate being on benefits, but I cannot do without at the moment, it's impossible.

[mico]

Exact same thing happened to me when I was virtually completely agoraphobic.

Unfortunately this is how the world is run these days, no common sense used whatsoever, just black and white questions and answers, and statistics.


mico

[Hello Earth]

It's so annoying, I could seriously kill someone right now. I've been on benefits for over 3 years and have been trying to get better, so naturally a couple of things have improved (I can answer the phone for example - give the boy a banana :rolleyes: ) but they suddenly think I'm capable again. Ugh.

Clearly you have to lie or exagerrate certain points, it's pathetic. I feel like such a moron...I suppose if nothing else this is more motivation to get better, cause I hate being at the mercy of some flawed system.

My main concern now is getting it sorted, I just hope it doesn't take any more than a month or two.

[shamoan]

I'd appeal and then I think you'll be able to explain properly how your condition affects your ability to work.

[Grah08]

hah I just had a phonecall questioning why I had been unemployed so long by the Dfp or whatever. And the categories I had did not cover mental aspects, just physical health and that.

It's a shame,that even today they are still not taking mental problems seriously.
You can,however,get a sickness note from your Doctor stating you are incapable of working due to Depression/Anxiety.
I got one to apply for IB but went on Jobseekers allowance in the end.It seems you get hassle from the benefit office no matter what
you're claiming.
I'm forcing myself to get a job now even though I feel like crap most days.Even a crap job must be better than this

[Hoople]

I have an incapacity benefit medical assessment soon which i'm not looking forward to. I think I should still be on it as i'm not exactly 'well', more like coping ok at the moment.
It sounds like they're just made a mistake I reckon Hello earth, hopefully be easy for you to sort out on monday.

[Hello Earth]

Originally Posted by Hoople

I have an incapacity benefit medical assessment soon which i'm not looking forward to. I think I should still be on it as i'm not exactly 'well', more like coping ok at the moment.
It sounds like they're just made a mistake I reckon Hello earth, hopefully be easy for you to sort out on monday.

I think you have to sort it out via form though, don't you, in order to appeal?

The thing is, the questions are the problem, a lot of them you just can't give a straight answer to, so they make no sense as "yes" or "no"

[Medea]

sorry to hear that, hello earth. I've got one of those forms to fill in (do you have problems walking? do you need care in the night? etc) but coupled to that I'm moving so I might have to go through it all again in the new area.

ren

[shamoan]

Hopefully my story will help. Here's what happened earlier this year...

When they stopped my incap benefit, i went onto job seekers. I eventually got a job but lasted a month due to SA.
I claimed job seekers again for a short while until they reviewed why i left the job and said it wasn't a good enough reason so stopped the job seekers.
I had an interview the next day so it made me determined to overcome the SA and get the job, which I did.
I lasted there a month, found it too much so go a job straight after shelf stacking which sounded ok, but in reality proved to be a nightmare and lasted 2 shifts!

I then phoned the job centre and asked to speak to a disability employment advisor who told me to get a sick note from my gp and apply for incap.
I then went see the advisor who's now arranged for me to go on work trial, where they help you find a job you can try out while claiming benefits with help and support from a advisor and the employer.
Theres other schemes like work step and theres no pressure to do anything.
I've also just had a mental health assessment arranged by my gp and will be starting confidence building classes in the new year.

So there is help out there, you just gotta ask

[Jessie Phillips]

Hello Earth:
If I were you I'd go to a citizen's advice bureau. If your social anxiety prevents you from doing this, then maybe you can get a friend, relative, social worker, nurse, physiotherapist or religious minister to go with you, or instead of you.

About appealing: I read somewhere that statistically, appeals are more likely to be successful if the claimant's carer attends but the claimant doesn't. But don't treat that as a hard and fast rule.

If your incapacity benefit was your only money coming in, and if you don't have any other savings or income, then you're probably entitled to either income support, or income based jobseeker's allowance, or maybe JSA under the hardship rules i.e. without having to go and sign on every two weeks.

A while ago I think I found a website which mimics the personal capability assessment form, and calculates how many points you'd get for filling in the form in a certain way. I think there was another one for disability living allowance. But I can't remember the address now - if I find it again, I'll post a link, and maybe it'll help you fill in the form slightly differently next time. I think you'll agree that at least some of the questions on the form are a bit subjective.

When incapacity benefit was brought in, it was only intended to be a replacement income for being unable to work. It isn't intended to help with other costs you might incur as a result of your illness or disability, and it isn't intended to help with care responsibilities. My point is, it's a good idea to see if you might get DLA and other benefits as well.

I think shamoan's story is interesting, however I would see that experience as being pushed around a bit. Not everyone would see that experience as helpful, and some might consider it stressful and feel that it destabilises their life. Thanks for sharing it, though.

But it's a sign of the times, I think - the government does seem to want to try to push more people off sickness benefits and into jobs, and doesn't really seem to care much about the social consequences of doing this. More and more we're having to rely on churches, charities and other forms of state-independent community support, where there's no legal guarantee of anything. This discussion group is a start, but we can't rely on internet forms alone.

I think the biggest flaw of the system is that government departments aren't very even-handed about giving advice on what you're entitled to. As a result, those who are socially well-connected tend to be more clued up about their rights, so they get more cash benefits, and a better service from the NHS, than those who have got no-one else to turn to. This is where independent community support really comes into its own. Even if you are ill and you are on benefits, you still don't have to feel as though you're dependent on the state.

Do you have anyone else near you that might be able to give you help and support?

Hope that helps.

[watervoilet]

I went for an appeal because I was claiming sickness benefit for 12 mths (I could not get Incapacity benefit I did not have enough national insurance contributions) then I had to go for an assesment were I was not awarded enough point on mental health grounds to be considered unfit for work . I was put back on Jobseekers so I put In for an appeal. It took nearly six months getting all the paper work together. When I went for the appeal I took some one with me and she was able to tell them things about me I would not have thought of. I got the 10 points I needed but only just, I now get income support.

[frazzled]

Hi,
A friend of mine had her Incapacity benefit stopped, she got help from Welfare Rights and appealed succesfully to have her benefit reinstated. She was accompanied to the appeal by an advisor from Welfare Rights. Unfortunately, the whole process took several months .
Apparentlly,appeals have a strong chance of being successful but I dont know the statistics. Ive included a link which offers more advice.
Best wishes,
Anthony

http://www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/ben...etailed/ib.htm

Anyone who's been in the basement might be surprised to hear this from me - but:

This infuriates me intensely.

Jessie your advice is very sound, but I might suggest another approach - which - tho on the face of it dodgy I suspect it may be legally watertight (tho I am no lawyer):

Some of the questions are so black and white, I can't believe it - for example, "can you walk more than 800 metres without needing help" or some such nonsense

It ain't so black and white tho is it? I mean - they havent specified the conditions - or what they mean by 'help' so it could equally be argued that you have untruthfully answered by saying yes...

see what I mean - play these idiots at their own game :D

I am, course, not suggesting you answer anything other than completely truthfully


SoundMan

[Jessie Phillips]

Soundman

It ain't so black and white tho is it? I mean - they havent specified the conditions - or what they mean by 'help' so it could equally be argued that you have untruthfully answered by saying yes...

Yes, thanks Soundman, that's a very good example of the kind of thing I was trying to illustrate, about subjective questions.

Of course I'm not suggesting anyone lies on the forms either - however, what would be the consequences if you did? Or more to the point, what would be the consequences if the DSS thought you were lying on the form, regardless of whether you actually did or not? What would you be able to do to defend yourself?

Don't take my word for it - it's better to check this sort of thing with the CAB - but I'd have thought it's very difficult to prove. If you find you're able to walk 800m without help at some time in the future, when they start investigating your case, it doesn't prove that you're able to do it now. I'd have thought that the only way they can verify how ill you were or weren't in the past is by requesting your medical records - and you do have rights about that. And if they stop your benefit without warning, you pretty much always have a right of appeal.

Like I say, though - don't take my word for it.

Like Soundman says - If you really can't go out of the house without getting worried that people are watching you and judging you, then it's true, you can't walk 800m without help. Therefore, having to defend yourself against allegations of lying on the form shouldn't be a problem.

All the same, though - it's a good idea to mention it to your doctor or other healthcare professional, so that they will back you up if necessary. It's tempting to downplay our problems to medical professionals because we're embarrassed, or because we feel like we shouldn't be a burden on them - but remember, they're there to help you.

Hope that helps.

(disclaimer: Neither I nor Soundman are lawyers, this does not constitute legally qualified advice)

[Hello Earth]

Originally Posted by SoundMan

It ain't so black and white tho is it? I mean - they havent specified the conditions - or what they mean by 'help' so it could equally be argued that you have untruthfully answered by saying yes...

Remember though - I didn't "answer" anything, at least not directly, or fill in any form. What this was, was a woman coming to my house to "re-assess" me and basically asking what I could and couldn't do. My last records prior to this were around 3 years old after all. So I told her, in quite some detail, and was honest about things. Perhaps I was naive and should have been careful (my mum actually warned me), but because she wasn't asking questions as they were presented on the form I later received and gave me the chance to fully explain my condition, I didn't think there would be a problem.

She didn't even have one of those tick-box forms in front of her and was just writing down notes (obviously not word for word). I find it very hard to believe that if everything I told her was truly taken into account that my benefits would've been stopped.

At the end of the assessment, the woman, who was a GP before, basically agreed I was in dire need of help. I suspect these notes were then passed onto some goon who saw "goes for walks along deserted beach", and ticked the relevant 800m box.

Whatever the case, as naive as I might be about all this, there's no way I would have answered that question as "yes" myself given the chance.

(I can't beleive this thread was only a week or so ago, it feels like ages)

[Stepford]

Hi Hello Earth,



I had a similar experience although I went to a capability assessment at one of Atos Origins centres. As far as I know ‘the tick box forms’ are only used to let you know how many points you have been awarded and not given out to the claimant beforehand. They don’t ask you the ‘tick box questions’ outright and I don’t remember most of the questions being asked at all. As an example I wasn’t awarded a point for “Do your mental problems impair your ability to communicate with other people”. Well! It’s clear to most people that I do have such a problem in some situations, but it depends on how well I came over at the interview, i.e. if I can talk to the doctor at all I don’t get a point…



David Blunkett made it clear that it doesn’t matter if you are ill they are still going to put the majority of claimants back into work. “Going out to work cures stress and depression much more effectively than watching daytime TV at home” I think this is the main thing, that whatever you say the government has its targets to keep. Blair and Blunkett have made it clear that these targets are more important than people. Like yesterday my doctor said “all mental problems are different and so the cure is different for each person” the government doesn’t seem to think so… I don’t know how ill you are meant to be to get thought the assessment but I suspect you have to be on your deathbed, which in my view is more than a welfare reform.

[quietnow]

I'm posting anonymously here because i know it's a touchy subject but i have strong and frank views on it. As far as benefits are concerned i think they need to be sitting on the fence. On the one hadn't you can't force someone into a job that will make them ill, and on the other hand you let them get away with not even trying.


I think the key word is 'try'. The way i think it should work is that each year or every 6 months an applicant should have to try a job of their choice that is suitable for their disability. There really is no harm is trying and both the applicant, and the tax payer should want proof that they really can't work. If the applicant cannot cope with the 'trial' job then they should be offered subsequent counselling sessions geared to establishing why they couldn't cope with the job, and exactly what parts of it they didn't like. Then a decision should be made whether it is wise to, based on these findings, give the applicant another job more suited to their disibility. Failing this there are voluntary work options, courses, treatments, ANYTHING that will help them earn a living could be offered.

Staying at home, feeling sorry for yourself and not HAVING to do anything about it doesn't do you any good. Trust me i've been there and it's a very awful place.

I now work in the benefits system myself and my job is to motivate people back into work, not bully them. But some of them seem to think that benefits are like a bubble protecting them from the reality that they really should be working.

[pboy]

Hi quietnow, I think you raise some good points.
But for me personally, if my benefits are stopped I believe it will hinder my SA. I am currently doing computer courses at a centre for people with learning difficulties, this is hard in itself. I'm simply not ready to make such a big leap into work just yet. If people do sit at home doing nothing all day, then yeah, those ones need to be pushed more. Myself, I dont sit at home doing nothing. I'm always trying to work on my SA. I think it's a myth that people sit at home all day doing nothing.
Thing is though, it seems that if you tell them you 'do' things during the day, they think you don't have a problem and will take you off benefits!
A lot of people, if they are suddenly pushed and pressured into working, will simply have a breakdown because they won't be ready to handle such a change. If people really are eased into work by the benefits system, then that could be a good thing.

[Hello Earth]

quietnow, I'm not sure whether you aimed that squarely at me, or just people in general, but I HAVE started the process for getting treatment. After 5 years (more in reality), I'm finally doing something about it. It's a slow process and I'm on a waiting list, but the wheels are in motion, and short of going private there's not much I can do to speed it up.

If I could "try" to work RIGHT NOW, today, don't you think I would? Or at least go back to college or something? I would NOT be sitting here (not that I sit here doing nothing...okay, sometimes I have periods of indifference like most SA sufferers, but I have hobbies). I see Incapicty Benefit as nothing more than a necessary source of income at the moment, NOT as something I can rely on and to replace work with. In terms of the word "try" - I try to get out places, and even in those areas with practically no one near me, it can still be a nightmare.

Ultimately I'm making very slow - too slow - progress with just my self for help, so I'm seeking help elsewhere.

I appreciate your comments though, and all the others who have offered great and/or varied advice.

[pboy]

Just a thought: if the benefits system really want to get people into work, then perhaps they should offer immediate CBT treatment to help people get better from SA faster. That goes for most mental problems. CBT waiting lists can be upto 10 months! It would certainly get a large number of mentally ill people back into work I think.

[Hello Earth]

Originally Posted by pboy

Thing is though, it seems that if you tell them you 'do' things during the day, they think you don't have a problem and will take you off benefits!

This is one of the things I mentioned earlier. I told her I have hobbies, even stuff as basic as reading, plus writing, cooking etc - even doing household chores counts as doing something it seems - so it took one point away from me. Which, in a way, is quite right, but the fact I needed one extra point to keep my benefits running was a bit frustrating, as that question (among others) isn't totally relevant to my problem...

[Hello Earth]

Originally Posted by pboy

I am currently doing computer courses at a centre for people with learning difficulties, this is hard in itself.

I hope you don't mind me asking, pboy, but are the learning difficulties you have to do with SA (or even SA in itself perhaps) or a seperate problem altogether?

[Hello Earth]

Originally Posted by pboy

Just a thought: if the benefits system really want to get people into work, then perhaps they should offer immediate CBT treatment to help people get better from SA faster. That goes for most mental problems. CBT waiting lists can be upto 10 months! It would certainly get a large number of mentally ill people back into work I think.

Absolutely, although I can understand it would be tricky to implement in reality. But if they did say, "right, to get you back out into the world, we're going to offer you treatment, starting next week for x many weeks", then I would jump at the chance.

[Stepford]

quietnow:


That could only work if,

1. The person trying is able to try without their issues getting worse maybe to the point of winding up in hospital ‘never to return to the real world’ or killing themselves.

2. There’s enough resources available to treat people and help i.e. Counsellors or if more deep seated problems psychotherapists.

3. The person can try and this is going to help them and/or their condition is treatable.

4.There are jobs for people with serious mental conditions.

5.The job bosses/managers will not make the person feel bad because he/she has a medical condition, so this doesn’t make their inner feelings about themselves any worse than they already are.

In my situation I’m not responding to treatment and as the therapist say my problems are very deep seated, going to work will I’m sure make me more ill. Also at the moment I'm getting no help as waiting is all you seem to do on the NHS (so #2 is not going to happen). This has happened when working with my condition of depression and social phobia, has made things worse because of unfeeling people. I’ve worked for 15 years BTW.

Maybe we are talking more about if self centred people want to pay taxes for people less well off than themselves and if there should be a welfare system at all?

[quietnow]

These are all excellent points and I wish everyone in my department was able to see these problems clearly.

I've been browsing this site for months now but these are actually my first posts.
Having SA myself I believe gives me an advantage over the somewhat 'bureaucratic' nature of the job (and beleive me it's a lot more bureaucratic than it should be) BUT, and a big BUT, I cannot say how much work is increasingly going into the levels of understanding and patience towards applicants. A few years ago SA wouldn't have even been registered as a valid IB factor - please don't forget that. It's important that these conditions are understood because then aswell as seeing clearly who cannot work, we can see who, given the right motivation, is able to really improve and get back to working.

Sometimes even the words 'get back to work' make people angry, and this upsets me sometimes. It's so easy to forget that benefits are exactly that - benefits set within the context of a capitalist society where we must work to make a living. This isn't quite star trek yet where people work 'just to better themselves' (i wish lol)

I can honestly say that things will certainly never get 'easier' for claimants - in fact totally the opposite. I know a lot of genuine claimants think we are meanies for doing our jobs but it's a godsend that benefits are available to us for a start (I have genuinely needed them in the past) but if there wasn't even so much of a hint of unpleasantness or difficulty, scrutiny etc in acquiring them, then who the hell would bother working? Who on earth would be motivated to get off them? Who on earth would bother seeking any treatment because there wouldn't be any goal in life - to get back to work. To have a fulfilling life.

I really think if more SA people joined the benefits sector, there would be more of an understanding of SA, and therefore more of a chance of getting people in work.

[pboy]

Originally Posted by Hello Earth

I hope you don't mind me asking, pboy, but are the learning difficulties you have to do with SA (or even SA in itself perhaps) or a seperate problem altogether?

Really it's just the SA stopping me from going to a 'normal' college (I have issues with others my age). The environment is more supportive, as others have difficulties so it is a less threatening atmosphere than a normal college would be.