Anyone looking forawrd to the slave labour that the government will be making us do?

[yuffie]

If people have to work for benefits then surely that means there is a job for them and surely they can't be allowed to work for less than minimum wage, won't the human rights brigade be sticking up for them? You get a better deal and education (if you want it) if you break the law and go to prison.

[Sea]

Originally Posted by flowergirl

Then why isn't eveyone who is unemployed volunteering to work for nothing already?

Apathy, depression, laziness, fear, I don't know, there are lots of possible reasons. I think quite a few unemployed people do volunteer though - it looks better on a CV than 'I did nothing for a year' or whatever.
While I agree with the point that the 'wages' they are offering are too low and the hours per week too many, I still think that if people expect to receive JSA then it isn't too much to expect them to contribute to society.
(and once again I emphasise that I do not mean people who are genuinely sick)

[smog]

I heard about this. I can understand if it is charity work that people will be doing, but if it's big companies that coin in millions/year then it's bullsh*t. Companies won't have any incentive to pay workers when they can get slave labour for free...

Thank god I don't rely on benefits.

[jay9]

Where the hell is all this work coming from!? Or are people just gonna get made to do s*** that doesn't need to be done just make them suffer for their benefit!?

[Gattaca]

Originally Posted by pigstar

It's amazing how thoroughly right-wing individualism has saturated public discourse. That's how stuff like this gets through without causing the riots it deserves to.
Here - well, on the last page really, but anyway - we've got someone* with, presumably, mental health issues which make it extremely difficult to lead a normal life. They're posting on a website for people with mental health issues which make it extremely difficult to lead a normal life, telling someone else with mental health...etc etc, that they'd get better if they only pulled their socks up and got a job. Thatcher'll die happy, cos her work here is done.

Well said.

[flowergirl]

Originally Posted by Dory

Apathy, depression, laziness, fear, I don't know, there are lots of possible reasons.

While work may help some of those people, for others it'll just make them feel worse.

[diplodocus]

Originally Posted by pigstar

Funny you should mention that...

Prisoners in England and Wales should work a 40-hour week, Justice Secretary Ken Clarke has said.

Although it sounds like, if I read the article right, they'd be getting close to the minimum wage. Not the £1.whatever an hour it works out as for dole scum like us. That's a nice touch. :/

So if you wanted to avoid having to do slave labour you should rob a bank and if you get caught you'll still be better off than a dole scrounger!

[no0ne]

i'd quite happily go and do some meanial work if it was arranged for me while i was claiming benefits. wouldn't bother me in the slightest. something to do get me out of the house for a bit.

[Sea]

Originally Posted by flowergirl

While work may help some of those people, for others it'll just make them feel worse.

But like I said before, I would imagine there will be a GP assessment or some other medical assessment to help to distinguish between those two categories.

Also...and inevitably this is going to sound harsh but I don't mean it to...but sometimes people do not know what they are capable of until they are pushed a bit. It's the 'easier' option to simply hide away at home, particularly for people that are supported by parents or other family. But simply not working isn't an option for a lot of people (including many who experience SA and/or depression). What I'm saying is that personal attitude comes into this, as it does towards CBT, exposure therapy, attending an SAUK meet and every other aspect of confronting our SA and other related issues. There will doubtless have to be some (hopefully objective) medical decision over who is fit for work and who is not, and if deemed fit to work by a medical professional then I think people need to be prepared to give it a go.
Well, that's just my opinion - I know lots of you disagree.

Edit: I admit I have no idea what exactly the government are planning in terms of determining who is fit for work and who isn't. My stance on this topic is purely assuming that this is done objectively on medical grounds and that people who genuinely cannot cope with working are not forced to.

[RattyLady]

Interesting article on the subject...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...-helps-jobless

[AxelFendersson]

I am capable of working. I want to work and I am looking for a job. But the reason I want to work is so that I can have a proper income and be financially independent. I want a job so I don't have to live on only £65.60 a week and so I can go out and do things. And I want a job so that when people ask me what I do for a living I have an answer. I don't want a job just to get me out of the house and give me something to do. Although SA and other considerations make it harder in some respects, I am still capable of doing that for myself.

Being required to perform menial work full-time without getting paid for it would do none of these things. It would not boost my self-esteem to be given work to do that is not only menial and well beneath my capabilities, but apparently not even worth paying me to do. It would not give me confidence in my ability to work that would then empower me to find a job. It would be humiliating and reinforce the idea that I am not worth as much as other people. It would mean I have much less time available in which to look for work, and ensure that I am more tired — and thus less motivated — in the time that remains. It would leave me all the more trapped in my dependency than I am now.

It would, in short, be a disaster.

[WelshKat]

Have to say, I'm with Dory on this. The hours seem OTT for the amount of money on offer but I think it's a good idea to do some voluntary work whilst you're seeking work. It could build experience and confidence. Obviously, if you're genuinely unable to do it then fair enough. Forcing people to do it if they can't would only make things worse, so there should be safeguards in place to stop that.

From a personal position, I'm on JSA at the moment and I would actually like to do some voluntary work. Not 40 hrs a week obviously, not for the paltry £25 a week I get. However, I keep holding back from organising some voluntary work because... because it's easier sitting at home doing nothing rather than facing my anxiety and doing something about it. And now I'm stuck in a bit of a rut with zero confidence. Hopefully I'll be able to overcome myself and do it but, in a way, if I was pushed into doing it, I wouldn't mind it.

Though it would depend on what type of work it was. If it was something that would build my skills that would help me in the future - good. If it was just menial sh*t that made me feel like I was being punished for being on the dole then, obviously, that would be rather bad.

[kastra]

I guess this is 'the big society'...we'll probably be running social services or something

[Rubik]

Originally Posted by AxelFendersson

It would not boost my self-esteem to be given work to do that is not only menial and well beneath my capabilities, but apparently not even worth paying me to do. It would not give me confidence in my ability to work that would then empower me to find a job. It would be humiliating and reinforce the idea that I am not worth as much as other people. It would mean I have much less time available in which to look for work, and ensure that I am more tired — and thus less motivated — in the time that remains. It would leave me all the more trapped in my dependency than I am now.

Exactly. It can no longer be called JSA, when will you have time to search for a job?! If it were at 20-30 hours a week, it would be less of a problem, but still.

No doubt the tory spin machine will publish statistics on how they have curbed the unemployment problem. Sickening.

[Rubik]

*curved

[Grinder]

I can sympathise with people who really won't be able to manage because of mental health problems. Its no consolation but the system in this country is still head and tails above other countries in the EU, and the rest of the world most especially.

I was chatting to a mate at college today who is from the Caribbean and apparently where he is from there arn't any benefits at all. You just have to find a way to put food on the table, whether that's from working legitimately or peddling hard drugs. That's just the way it is.

Given the amount of immigrants coming over here claiming benefits and also the lazy British people encouraged to stay at home breeding - its no real wonder why the system has collapsed, and why there is such a victicious antithesis.

The reason why its come about is because the majority of the population cannot in good concious vote for a government that takes from the working man to give to the freeloading layabout. Obviously there are so many special cases and those that fall between the cracks of the system, but in the end the system was rotten and hence why it could never have lasted.

If it ever goes back to how it was under Labour, which is likely given the strong socialist northern areas of the country, then at least it will have given those leeching off the system a bit of a scare and a taste of the working mans' reality. It will be a time of hard decisions - work to recieve benefits or get a job.

In the end, I respect the motivations behind the coalition because its going to make them even more unpopular but it won't stop me personally voting for them again in future elections.

[pinkwafer]

Well, I aren't claiming anything right now, so they can't make me do anything.



I do believe their aim to get 60% off disability is unrealistic - if 60% of people on disability are actually capable of working, then how did they get on it in the first place?

The only job that there is any real demand for right now is warehouse operative type roles - so someone suffers from panic attacks... a noisy factory is the right environment for them? Someone suffers from joint trouble... manual labour is right for them?

How about taxing people who earn substantial amounts even more?

There is so much money in this country and they are planning on taking it from those who have the least.

Bugger the conservatives. They started all this in the 1980s. Then they try blaming it on the last labour government. Oh whatever.

Then you get idiot Daily Mail readers who can't think for themselves believing everything that poisonous newspaper tells them.

[VeryQuietGuy]

It's only people who are fit pyhsically and mentally that are going to have to do it according to the BBC.

[AxelFendersson]

I will admit that if the government were finding people part-time work that would include useful training and build skills that would make them more employable, I'd be very much up for that. If run well, that would be a really useful scheme that I would be happy to be on.

But requiring people to spend all their time doing something menial and humiliating without paying them an appropriate wage for doing so is not helpful. It's not about helping people back to work; it's about punishing the unemployed.

[Terence]

They seemed to do a bit of a uturn on this. When it was first announced it was made out it would be all unemployed people out of work for a year or more but by the end of the day the bulletin was saying it would only be for those the adviser thinks it will benefit. So not everybody then except the ones the adviser chooses for whatever reason that defies fairness and logic. The chronically unemployed like myself no doubt.

This is the type of work they use for community service so what's going to happen to them they going to be sent to jail instead ? That will cost them a few bob more.

CONSCRIPTED that's a good description. CONCSRIPTED into unpaid work and as you have no choice you are at the mercy of the person USING YOU FOR FOUR WEEKS.

What this does is the following:

1. It fails to treat people as adults so it's unfair and predjudiced. It singles people out from a certain section of society for a treatment that many other citizens are not subjected to in that respect it's divides people and makes them feel like they are worth less than other people not subject to the treatment.

2. It allows the Tories to attack the people they don't like and give them a good kicking ie the poor who don't vote for them. Also it's them getting us back for making them have egg on their faces over their expenses.

3. It allows unscrupulous employers to get four weeks free work out of vulnerable people for let's not forget BIG SOCIETY means contracting out council work to private firms who will charge the council for the work done. And no chance of being taken on at the end of it. The YTS scandal all over again.

4. It erodes the principles of fairness and equality not increases it as I don't think many people of the middle classes or above will be doing any of this stuff.

5. It's a direct attack on Human Rights which has at it's heart a persons right to be treated with respect and dignity and this is nothing more than the govt attempting to humiliate people into getting off benefits through bullying and intimidation. It will be humiliating to say otherwise is a fat lie.

6. It makes me sick as it's 1984 come true. Next they will be singling us out in the DWP with cattle prods and directing us into white rooms for thought manangement. Like if you protest "your not wanting to be helped " was the charge I came up against last monday.

Bollocks I just want to be treated with respect and if I think the interviews are bollocks I've a right to express that. That's no reason to apply a punishment as a thought is not a crime as far as I used to.

What is true though is that Danny Alexander or what's his name really is a ginger rodent who should stay in London from now on and move into the sewers down there where he will have many friends. Nick Clegg truly is a prostitute who is easily bought in return for a shoddy shot at power that isn't really power. He'd suck any policy coming out of number ten out the end of a ministerial loo roll right now. And David Cameron is like some kind of vaudeville comedian he makes me want to roar with laughter at how stupid he is his ideas are so lame and unworkable.

[Scott03]

I am very much opposed to this 'workfare' idea as it fails to address the real reasons why people are unemployed - lack of jobs. As I have mentioned in the 'annoying things people say to you when unemployed' thread, there are not enough jobs for every person who wants a job. However, politicians, whether from New Labour, the Conservatives, the Liberal Democrats (or many other parties) prefer to take the easy option and instead of helping to create jobs they prefer to punish the unemployed for being unemployed.

I think that the idea may be a more reasonable one if they paid people the minimum wage for these jobs rather than Jobseeker's Allowance i.e. slave labour wages, and of course they do not bully people with mental health difficulties into them. Also, the government are clearly using high unemployment to their advantage because they can sack properly paid council workers and replace them with JSA claimants who are, of course, paid much less. Indeed, it is perfectly possible that someone could lose their job working for a local council, only to find themsleves doing the same job later on for JSA rather than proper wages. So this policy is advantageous to the government in a number of different ways.

It is also important to remember that pretty much anyone could end up having to do this as it is rather easy to end up unemployed in todays economic climate.

One thing that I also must mentionis that New Deal does not exist anymore and was replaced with Flexible New Deal in October 2009. With this scheme everyone on it has to do four weeks of work related activity. This could be work or a training course, for example. Flexible New Deal is due to be replaced by a new scheme calle The Work Programme next summer.

[jay9]

Originally Posted by AxelFendersson

Being required to perform menial work full-time without getting paid for it would do none of these things. It would not boost my self-esteem to be given work to do that is not only menial and well beneath my capabilities, but apparently not even worth paying me to do. It would not give me confidence in my ability to work that would then empower me to find a job. It would be humiliating and reinforce the idea that I am not worth as much as other people. It would mean I have much less time available in which to look for work, and ensure that I am more tired ***8212; and thus less motivated ***8212; in the time that remains. It would leave me all the more trapped in my dependency than I am now.

Agreed, it sure would make me feel great being forced to crap that's not even worth them paying me for.

Originally Posted by WelshKat

I keep holding back from organising some voluntary work because... because it's easier sitting at home doing nothing rather than facing my anxiety and doing something about it. And now I'm stuck in a bit of a rut with zero confidence. Hopefully I'll be able to overcome myself and do it but, in a way, if I was pushed into doing it, I wouldn't mind it.

Though it would depend on what type of work it was. If it was something that would build my skills that would help me in the future - good. If it was just menial sh*t that made me feel like I was being punished for being on the dole then, obviously, that would be rather bad.

Yeah, it's a good idea push people into work, but 40 hours a week for lousy £50 dole money!? I'd be getting just over £1 an hour, which is totally disgusting. This is what bloody criminals should be doing, not the unemployed!

[Sea]

Originally Posted by Scott85

Also, the government are clearly using high unemployment to their advantage because they can sack properly paid council workers and replace them with JSA claimants who are, of course, paid much less. Indeed, it is perfectly possible that someone could lose their job working for a local council, only to find themsleves doing the same job later on for JSA rather than proper wages.

Hmmm, I've seen this raised in a few places as a concern but realistically I'm not sure if it could happen. The council would simply find themselves sued for unfair dismissal I would imagine, particularly if the sacked person was then replaced by a JSA 'volunteer' worker rather than an employed person. I would imagine that procedures will have to be put in place specifically to stop this happening before the scheme starts.
On the other hand perhaps I am being incredibly naive...

[Scott03]

Originally Posted by Dory

Hmmm, I've seen this raised in a few places as a concern but realistically I'm not sure if it could happen. The council would simply find themselves sued for unfair dismissal I would imagine, particularly if the sacked person was then replaced by a JSA 'volunteer' worker rather than an employed person. I would imagine that procedures will have to be put in place specifically to stop this happening before the scheme starts.
On the other hand perhaps I am being incredibly naive...

You may be right Dory. When the guidelines for this are published, there may be rules that prevent the replacement of council employees with Jobseeker's Allowance workfare people. We'll have to wait and see about that.

I do, however, still think that these jobs that are going to be used for JSA claimants should instead be used as real jobs that people apply for and receive at least the minimum wage for doing. As there are not enough jobs for everyone at the moment, they'd soon be filled probably with JSA claimants anyway, except it wouldn't be 'slave labour'.

[waine]

i already am doing it well for the under 24s where you do community work for a charity for 25 hours a week. Luckily i am on paroxetine though. I have no idea how i would have coped if i had never gone on these meds though.

[firemonkey]

Originally Posted by VeryQuietGuy

It's only people who are fit pyhsically and mentally that are going to have to do it according to the BBC.

The trouble being that Atos are declaring many people mentally and/or physically fit ,regardless of whether they actually are or not.
Doctor's input as to suitability for work regularly gets ignored in favour of the say so of an assessor who doesn't know your situation in anything like the depth your GP and/or Consultant does.

[RattyLady]

^ besides which being government funded and having targets to reach and quotas to fill

[Grinder]

Originally Posted by Cynic

I've lived in the north of the country (West of Scotland, then NW England) all my life and nearly all the socialists I've met were Middle-Class champagne socialists. Almost all the Working-Class I've known have been high RWA chavs. I really dunno where this idea of north = socialist comes from.

John Prescott..

I'm still at the age where I base my judgement of many millions of people on loud, brash, maniacal, left wing-pie-scoffing-clowns like him. To my own detriment of course.

[Belinda]

It's especially immoral to bring in workfare when a lot of mentally ill people are being unfairly removed from incapacity benefit/ESA and forced to go on JSA because the fitness for work test is now 10 minutes long and hardly addresses mental health issues. I've heard of many people who couldn't even leave the house due to agoraphobia being taken off ESA because they were 'fit to work'- so now they're going to be expected to be out in public all day? I wonder if they will make us wear orange boilersuits like at Guantanamo?

PS Not sure if I am a bit thick but I can't get the hang of quoting in these forums- is there some secret formula that I haven't mastered? I wanted to quote Pigstar and say that I quite agree.

[RattyLady]

Originally Posted by Cynic

WORK IS FREEDOM, remember!

Ha!

Indeed.