Being introvert effects prospects at work

[dave81uk]

Did anyone see this on BBC Breakfast this morning? I only caught the tail end of it but it seemed to say what we always knew but everyone else didn't that being a good worker counts for very little if you are introvert. When I worked I never progressed anywhere due to this and my recent redundancy also backs this up, have you experienced this?

[Phool]

Yep. I come across as quite confident at work and am hard working. But have always been told that I don't talk myself up enough or I don't push myself forward enough.

I took redundancy in October and went travelling, been job hunting since February and getting nowhere fast. Last week I sent my CV off to various review sites and the feedback I have got is " too bland, doesn't stand out, not ambitious enough,need to outline achievements etc etc" Thing is I am too shy and hate promoting myself in that way and I don't want to oversell myself. I wish people could just accept the work that I've done.

If we looked at everyone's CV's this would look like a country of CEO'S. Why can't people accept that being pushy is not appropriate at all levels.

[dave81uk]

Originally Posted by Phool

Yep. I come across as quite confident at work and am hard working. But have always been told that I don't talk myself up enough or I don't push myself forward enough.

I took redundancy in October and went travelling, been job hunting since February and getting nowhere fast. Last week I sent my CV off to various review sites and the feedback I have got is " too bland, doesn't stand out, not ambitious enough,need to outline achievements etc etc" Thing is I am too shy and hate promoting myself in that way and I don't want to oversell myself. I wish people could just accept the work that I've done.

If we looked at everyone's CV's this would look like a country of CEO'S. Why can't people accept that being pushy is not appropriate at all levels.

I was lucky in that I made friends with someone online that does CV's for a living, she done one up for me but I have never seen such a load of bull, sure its truthful but its made me sound like a candidate for The Apprentice, she says you need to build yourself up if you want to get anywhere these days which is probably true but its not me.

[gingercat]

This doesn't surprise me. I should probably think myself lucky that I've got a good job at the moment but I worry about the future. Right now I do computer programming mostly, but there seems to be a push to getting people into management instead of actually writing code as they get older (both in general and at my workplace). I'm dreading it if I ever have to make that jump... I know I wouldn't be any good at managing people and even if I could force myself to do it I would find it stressful and horrible.

I'd much rather stay in the role I'm in for life as I'm good at it, I find it interesting and the pay's not bad, but it seem like that's not the "done thing" anymore... I just get the impression the older ones who are still at the same level as me are regarded as failures who the company would rather get rid of if they could, and I don't really want to end up like that, but the alternative doesn't look good either ... why can't people just do what they're good at these days? Why is everyone supposed to aspire to becoming some sort of uber-social go-getting manager or be seen as a failure?

[Toxic]

brown nosing the way up a company and selling yourself sounds like my idea of hell

i wish i could just find a job doing something i enjoy..and thats it..no fighting for promotion, no having to big myself up, but then i also dont fancy a boring 9-5 routine..i cant be pleased

I understand though, no one would bloody employ me based on my CV, its truthful but it lacks bullshit..so it'll be dull/ignored. I dont know why we cant just be honest without the extra coating of BS to get anywhere in life

[Aelwyn]

I completely agree with all the above. I wonder when all this emphasis on extroversion in the workplace began? It's ghastly.

[Ajax Amsterdam]

Originally Posted by dave81uk

Did anyone see this on BBC Breakfast this morning? I only caught the tail end of it but it seemed to say what we always knew but everyone else didn't that being a good worker counts for very little if you are introvert. When I worked I never progressed anywhere due to this and my recent redundancy also backs this up, have you experienced this?

I missed this, but it's of no surprise to me at all. I'm not an introvert at all, but my anxiety and lack of confidence have always held me back in a similar way.

I think you could be a fantastic person/worker with many skills and qualities, but unless you can exhibit them, parade them and get them seen, you will often be overlooked. I longsince realised that presentation trumps quality in this world. If you have the front to bullshit, you'll probably do ok.

I'm actually going to conduct a little experiment over the next few months. I've been applying for work and have been honest, up front and used integrity on my applications. Despite that, I've had one rejection and the rest couldn't be arsed replying. From now on I'm going to totally bullshit on applications and see what happens. I'll make out that the sun shines through my backside and see what happens, because they sure don't value honesty and a caring approach (the jobs are in support/care).

I think good jobs are often full of people who simply know how to bullshit others and sell themselves well. It can be a pack of lies, but if it sounds good, you're in. This obviously leaves the introvert, the lacking in confidence, the anxious at a distinct disadvantage.

I've never been a self-promoter. My counselling supervisor tears his hair out listening to me because I'm so slow to pat myself on the back when I get it right. In my world, quality speaks for itself and has humility. So if I do anything well I let it do the talking for me. But in this world people who can shout loudest in the selling themselves stakes tend to go far, whether they have the quality or not. Maybe it's the Halo Effect. Maybe because a person can put themselves over well, other qualities are automatically attributed to them too.

I'm currently about to update my ageing CV, and I'm going to put a shed load of bollocks on that too. Suppose you just have to tell them what they want to hear.

[dave81uk]

Originally Posted by Benfica

I missed this, but it's of no surprise to me at all. I'm not an introvert at all, but my anxiety and lack of confidence have always held me back in a similar way.

I think you could be a fantastic person/worker with many skills and qualities, but unless you can exhibit them, parade them and get them seen, you will often be overlooked. I longsince realised that presentation trumps quality in this world. If you have the front to bullshit, you'll probably do ok.

I'm actually going to conduct a little experiment over the next few months. I've been applying for work and have been honest, up front and used integrity on my applications. Despite that, I've had one rejection and the rest couldn't be arsed replying. From now on I'm going to totally bullshit on applications and see what happens. I'll make out that the sun shines through my backside and see what happens, because they sure don't value honesty and a caring approach (the jobs are in support/care).

I think good jobs are often full of people who simply know how to bullshit others and sell themselves well. It can be a pack of lies, but if it sounds good, you're in. This obviously leaves the introvert, the lacking in confidence, the anxious at a distinct disadvantage.

I've never been a self-promoter. My counselling supervisor tears his hair out listening to me because I'm so slow to pat myself on the back when I get it right. In my world, quality speaks for itself and has humility. So if I do anything well I let it do the talking for me. But in this world people who can shout loudest in the selling themselves stakes tend to go far, whether they have the quality or not. Maybe it's the Halo Effect. Maybe because a person can put themselves over well, other qualities are automatically attributed to them too.

I'm currently about to update my ageing CV, and I'm going to put a shed load of bollocks on that too. Suppose you just have to tell them what they want to hear.

Since I got my CV made over I am getting interviews these days but it some how feels fake, The CV is true enough but its just not me.

I am seeking a position where I can use my administrative, ICT and craft skills fully. I am ambitious to do well in any role, and pride myself on doing a good job. I perform well where I can achieve ambitious goals and I am more likely to do this in positions that also allow me to use my technical and craft skills. I have a mature outlook, an excellent work record and a genuine record of good performance at work. I am flexible and adaptable, I work very well on my own and I am also a respected team member

[Ajax Amsterdam]

Originally Posted by dave81uk

Since I got my CV made over I am getting interviews these days but it some how feels fake, The CV is true enough but its just not me.

I know what you mean. It probably sums you up very well, but in a way that doesn't quite sit well with you. Funny enough, I think I could flower myself up with words quite easily, but no way would the end result feel like me or look like me, even if it was actually accurate. I suppose we are being asked to sell ourselves in a way we are not familiar or comfortable with. But like most things in this world, it's just bull, bluster and gloss that people sit up and take notice of. Maybe we've just got to play them at their own game?

Originally Posted by Cynic

One self-confessed Conservative who managed his daddy's company (so he told us anyway) once blatantly told me that "honesty doesn't count", and that "sucking up was everything" on a well known Liverpool radio pundit's forum a few years ago...straight out the horse's mouth.

Pretty much sums it up then, eh.

I did sort of suss this out some years ago when doing care work. The most valued staff were not those who cared most and did a thorough job. It was the ones who'd put the most hours in, get in and out of 'jobs' quickly (I hate calling clients ''jobs''). So, basically the corner-cutters.

There were even complaints from clients against certain members of staff, and I could see what was going on. My opinion was asked by management, but because it painted the 'golden boy/girl' staff members in a bad light it was glossed over and ignored. I pretty much learned back then that honesty counts for little at times, and what was valued was brown-nosing and getting the job done regardless of whether or not you do it well, or simply cut corners in order to complete it. Time and money over quality and approach.

[Azi]

I don't think it's about bullshitting, but you do have to sell yourself - you're expecting people to select you out of 100s of potential candidates, and you really need to let your best qualities show. It feels fecking uncomfortable sometimes, but I think that's true for most people (especially the British, where self-promotion is frowned upon).

But I can certainly see that in some jobs, introversion might hold you back.

[Duke of Prunes]

Introversion doesn't have anything to do with it, social anxiety does. Introverts aren't inherently asocial, nor are extroverts inherently ***8216;uber-social***8217; or ***8216;go-getting***8217;.

Society isn't biased against introverts, nor is it biased towards extroverts. Intuition, eloquence, decisiveness, and motivation are the qualities that make success ***8211; not just in our ***8216;Western***8217; society that everybody whines about so much, but in all cultures, societies, and activities ***8211; and they are not qualities exclusive to extroverts.

Stop blaming the rest of the world for your problems, and especially stop regurgitating the same old misanthropic, angsty ***8216;lolz extroverts are hyper-social and obnoxious and introverts are quiet***8217; and ***8216;omgz society hates shyness***8217; lines.

[humourlessness]

If we looked at everyone's CV's this would look like a country of CEO'S.

[QUOTE]Why can't people accept that being pushy is not appropriate at all levels. :screams[/QUOTE


I would agree that itis important to exaggerate your CV in order to get a job or feign confidence at an interview. But once you get the job I don't believe self-promotion is as necessary in the long run. Over time, your boss will see if you have integrity or not, whether you are prepared to go the extra mile, your enthusiasm will shine throiugh or lack of. No need for self-promotion.

Which reminds me, I need to show more enthusiasm at work and go the extra mile.

[Admiral Fool]

i don't know if this affects other introverts at work but the fact i may well be overlooked, thought of as an idiot, incompetent or irrelevant has only inured my sense of integrity in the sense that i don't pass the buck, lie, gossip or any other thing that will compensate for the fact that i may be thought of unkindly. it may count for little in terms of career prospects but the fact i genuinely hold these things to be important makes me feel like a better person.

[gingercat]

Originally Posted by Duke of Prunes

Introversion doesn't have anything to do with it, social anxiety does. Introverts aren't inherently asocial, nor are extroverts inherently ***8216;uber-social***8217; or ***8216;go-getting***8217;.

Society isn't biased against introverts, nor is it biased towards extroverts. Intuition, eloquence, decisiveness, and motivation are the qualities that make success ***8211; not just in our ***8216;Western***8217; society that everybody whines about so much, but in all cultures, societies, and activities ***8211; and they are not qualities exclusive to extroverts.

Stop blaming the rest of the world for your problems, and especially stop regurgitating the same old misanthropic, angsty ***8216;lolz extroverts are hyper-social and obnoxious and introverts are quiet***8217; and ***8216;omgz society hates shyness***8217; lines.

Not sure if this was in response to my post, guessing it might be as you quoted a couple of things I said... if so then my post really didn't come across the way I meant it to so I should clarify.

I wasn't saying extroversion (or introversion) was a bad thing. I agree that they both have their place and both are (or should be) valued. I was just voicing something that's been making me a bit uneasy for a while, namely that there seems to be a tendency in my workplace (and from what I've heard, in other similar ones too) to try and push people towards management roles just because they've reached a certain age, and that this worries me because I don't think I'm ever going to be well suited to that. I've got nothing at all against the people who are, they just have different strengths to me and I would rather be left alone to work in an area where I do have strengths than be forced into doing something I'm not naturally good at.

Thinking again, this doesn't really fit with the thread topic and was probably the wrong place to bring it up. Sorry .

[humourlessness]

Originally Posted by Duke of Prunes

Intuition, eloquence, decisiveness, and motivation are the qualities that make success ***8211; not just in our ***8216;Western***8217; society that everybody whines about so much, but in all cultures, societies, and activities ***8211; and they are not qualities exclusive to extroverts.

Stop blaming the rest of the world for your problems, and especially stop regurgitating the same old misanthropic, angsty ***8216;lolz extroverts are hyper-social and obnoxious and introverts are quiet***8217; and ***8216;omgz society hates shyness***8217; lines.

And dismissive arrogance?

[GhostOnMagneticTape]

Basically one needs to be fake to succeed in a place of work today, just like going to a job interview, we need to fake it.

I'm sure a lot (if not the majority) of people have their "work persona" and "when not in work persona", though of course depends on type of job.

It seems like we are conditioned to act what we are really not, no wonder mental health illnesses are rife in western societies.

[humourlessness]

Originally Posted by AlienBuddha

Basically one needs to be fake to succeed in a place of work today, just like going to a job interview, we need to fake it.
I'm sure a lot (if not the majority) of people have their "work persona" and "when not in work persona", though of course depends on type of job.

.

I don't think having a "work persona" is being "fake". It's taking on a role.I expect a doctor to act like a doctor, a teacher to act like a teacher. Part of being professional. Their training and knowledge gives them confidence. If they are truly "fake" or "imposters" they will be found out one day and lose their job.

[catlover]

Originally Posted by AlienBuddha

Basically one needs to be fake to succeed in a place of work today, just like going to a job interview, we need to fake it.

I'm sure a lot (if not the majority) of people have their "work persona" and "when not in work persona", though of course depends on type of job.

It seems like we are conditioned to act what we are really not, no wonder mental health illnesses are rife in western societies.

We, in the west, supposedly value individual freedom and personal autonomy, but as corporate drones who have to assume a fake personality just to get a job and pay our bills, how free are we really?

Originally Posted by Cynic

That is a great pity and a sad sign of the times.

In this day and age, we're either (a) corporate clones and drones, or (b) nobody. That's the modern day world for you.

Couldn't have said it better.

Originally Posted by gingercat

This doesn't surprise me. I should probably think myself lucky that I've got a good job at the moment but I worry about the future. Right now I do computer programming mostly, but there seems to be a push to getting people into management instead of actually writing code as they get older (both in general and at my workplace). I'm dreading it if I ever have to make that jump... I know I wouldn't be any good at managing people and even if I could force myself to do it I would find it stressful and horrible.

I'm in the same boat. My boss had been pushing me to "take the next step", but I refused. I know what that kind of job entails: beating up on the workers in order to make schedule and look good to the higher-ups. It's all about "perception management". I prefer to remain in the real world, with no power over anyone.

[humourlessness]

I know what that kind of job entails: beating up on the workers in order to make schedule and look good to the higher-ups. It's all about "perception management". I prefer to remain in the real world, with no power over anyone.

I think this is exactly what's happening at my work-place. Middle management have lost touch with us drones, in order to please higher-ups and create the illusion of success and harmony.

[desi99]

Originally Posted by gingercat

This doesn't surprise me. I should probably think myself lucky that I've got a good job at the moment but I worry about the future. Right now I do computer programming mostly, but there seems to be a push to getting people into management instead of actually writing code as they get older (both in general and at my workplace). I'm dreading it if I ever have to make that jump... I know I wouldn't be any good at managing people and even if I could force myself to do it I would find it stressful and horrible.

I'd much rather stay in the role I'm in for life as I'm good at it, I find it interesting and the pay's not bad, but it seem like that's not the "done thing" anymore... I just get the impression the older ones who are still at the same level as me are regarded as failures who the company would rather get rid of if they could, and I don't really want to end up like that, but the alternative doesn't look good either ... why can't people just do what they're good at these days? Why is everyone supposed to aspire to becoming some sort of uber-social go-getting manager or be seen as a failure?

Tell me about it. I am 42 and still do programming while my ex-colleagues are senior managers. Why everyone needs to be pushed to be manager is beyond me.
The future does not look good with being a older techie. I dont know what to do.

[GoldFish]

I am the same. I work hard all day but i'm rubbish at showing enthusiasm to managers. I find managers to be intimidating authoritarian even if they are just trying to show constructive criticism. Supervisors i can get on with normal.

I tend to avoid the staff though apart from saying hello or if they start a conversation.

The ones who are really agressively confident and forthcoming are the ones that tend to succeed in any job. No matter what nationality.

Now i also believe that there may be places out there where a person who is shy at one place may be way more forthcoming and in the groove at a different job in the right environment for them.

But yes, i have never been promoted. I always stay in the same position, which is assistant or staff member. This is across a few industries, it was the same when i was helping programming, eventually i was backed into a corner and left. I've worked in a kitchen and never reached past kitchen porter over three years. I worked in publishing, it was the same story.

The biggest issue is that I seem to be given the tasks that nobody else wants to do. That are high risk and mindlessly easy at the same time but still require alot of hard work.

[GoldFish]

Originally Posted by humourlessness

I think this is exactly what's happening at my work-place. Middle management have lost touch with us drones, in order to please higher-ups and create the illusion of success and harmony.

Sounds like 99% of most work places i've experienced.

The best jobs i've ever had were small businesses, 2-3 people. Down to earth conversations, a bit of jokey banter in between the work. Pleasant. The best!!!

[Phool]

Originally Posted by desi99

Tell me about it. I am 42 and still do programming while my ex-colleagues are senior managers. Why everyone needs to be pushed to be manager is beyond me.
The future does not look good with being a older techie. I dont know what to do.

Originally Posted by GoldFish

I am the same. I work hard all day but i'm rubbish at showing enthusiasm to managers. I find managers to be intimidating authoritarian even if they are just trying to show constructive criticism. Supervisors i can get on with normal.

I tend to avoid the staff though apart from saying hello or if they start a conversation.

The ones who are really agressively confident and forthcoming are the ones that tend to succeed in any job. No matter what nationality.

Now i also believe that there may be places out there where a person who is shy at one place may be way more forthcoming and in the groove at a different job in the right environment for them.

But yes, i have never been promoted. I always stay in the same position, which is assistant or staff member. This is across a few industries, it was the same when i was helping programming, eventually i was backed into a corner and left. I've worked in a kitchen and never reached past kitchen porter over three years. I worked in publishing, it was the same story.

The biggest issue is that I seem to be given the tasks that nobody else wants to do. That are high risk and mindlessly easy at the same time but still require alot of hard work.

I am not a programmer but these stories sound very familiar. I am approaching 38 and was at graduate entry grade for about 4 years and then one level up for about 10 years. There might have been a point when I might have pushed for a higher position but I had a breakdown and have never had the confidence or the inclination to try since. i am quite happy being one of the back office drones getting on with day to day stuff, ,but its hard to sell that on a CV or job application. People expect you to sound ambitious or go getting and I am just not like that, hard working yes, hungry to climb up the career ladder no. But after this thread and another one I started I have tarted up my CV a bit, lets see if that helps.

[Cleo]

Originally Posted by Duke of Prunes

Introversion doesn't have anything to do with it, social anxiety does. Introverts aren't inherently asocial, nor are extroverts inherently ***8216;uber-social***8217; or ***8216;go-getting***8217;.

Society isn't biased against introverts, nor is it biased towards extroverts. Intuition, eloquence, decisiveness, and motivation are the qualities that make success ***8211; not just in our ***8216;Western***8217; society that everybody whines about so much, but in all cultures, societies, and activities ***8211; and they are not qualities exclusive to extroverts.

Stop blaming the rest of the world for your problems, and especially stop regurgitating the same old misanthropic, angsty ***8216;lolz extroverts are hyper-social and obnoxious and introverts are quiet***8217; and ***8216;omgz society hates shyness***8217; lines.

I agree. If you fill in gaps in your CV - which I did - or paint a false persona, you have to live up to that and have a damned good memory. On reflection, when I was doing a temporary job, I dreaded going into the 'canteen'. I thought my gaucheness had been unnoticed until this person said, 'We won't eat you, you know'. I was in my forties then, so just imagine how humiliated I felt. So I only partially agree with the quote.

Best

Theo

[desi99]

Originally Posted by AlienBuddha

Basically one needs to be fake to succeed in a place of work today, just like going to a job interview, we need to fake it.

I'm sure a lot (if not the majority) of people have their "work persona" and "when not in work persona", though of course depends on type of job.

It seems like we are conditioned to act what we are really not, no wonder mental health illnesses are rife in western societies.

You can start with a fake persona in a new job but how long can you keep up the act. It's tiring to be smiling and faking happiness and you are knackered at the end of the day.
With me, fake persona last only for a week and then I get back into quiet mode whether they like it or not.