It's normal to be insecure

[tryinghard]

Just something I like to remind myself of that I thought I'd share: Everybody is insecure to some degree.

I have a feeling this is blindingly obvious but I think it's really easy to forget: Especially with shorthand self help advice that feels like it's saying "always love yourself" or "never care about what others think" - these ideas are completely unrealistic. Everybody has self doubts and everybody cares what at least some people think.

I have a tendency to call myself "crazy" or "mental" when I have insecurities and anxieties and to completely blame myself for them and think I have to "fix myself" or think other people will think I'm weird and crazy for being anxious and insecure. My brother is actually a mental health professional and put it to me that the people who are in therapy aren't "the insecure ones" they're the ones who think you're not supposed to be insecure. Other people have insecurities, they just know it's normal to be that way and don't try to fix themselves - they're not insecure about their insecurities, essentially.

I was reminded of this because I was out with a friend last night who is the most secure person I have ever met. She has very high self worth but not in a defensive/arrogant way, she can be told of flaws or mistakes and review them, decide to change, forgive herself all in one breath. This makes her almost magically resilient to bad news, although obviously she gets upset - she just bounces back so easily and it's something I've always admired about her. She's recently started dating and was looking for reassurance that someone who has recently stopped replying to her messages hadn't disappeared because of something she'd done or said. She was laughing about how obsessed she'd been with it for the last few days, saying she hadn't been able to stop thinking about it and it was really distracting. She was taking it in good spirits, she said she knew it wasn't worth this much thought, but that it had really played on her mind. It just made me think again that even the most secure people around are vulnerable and do get insecure, and do care what other people think - the only difference is that they don't call themselves crazy or weird for it, they just accept that this is part of being human. It's not a weakness, it's ok to admit to.

So yeah, I thought I'd share it. First try not to be insecure about how insecure you are - meta-insecurity seems to me to be one of the biggest problems. It doesn't mean don't review your insecurities and gain perspective, but it definitely never helps to start beating yourself up for having them. Nothing makes us more normal than being insecure

[lone*star]

I agree that everybody is insecure to some degree. So the two main points of interest in that observation are:

a) Everybody is insecure

b) There are varying degrees to that insecurity


So what interests me most are the reasons behind those two points. In other words, Why is everybody insecure? And why are some people more insecure than others?

Perhaps if we looked into those two questions and could find out the answers, we might then all be able to benefit as a result.

[umm]

Originally Posted by lone*star

I agree that everybody is insecure to some degree. So the two main points of interest in that observation are:

a) Everybody is insecure

b) There are varying degrees to that insecurity


So what interests me most are the reasons behind those two points. In other words, Why is everybody insecure? And why are some people more insecure than others?

Perhaps if we looked into those two questions and could find out the answers, we might then all be able to benefit as a result.

My impression is that people are insecure because life is fundamentally competitive, and any deficiency one has will be put in the spotlight and exploited. That's just a facet of being human and probably unavoidable, but what we can do is learn how to manage that situation and lessen its impact. Generally, as it is now, it seems to me that certain things are rewarded and other things are punished. As kids, the loud, active, boisterous (bleaurgh!) ones are praised and the quiet ones are repeatedly hit with the message "why aren't you more loud/violent/insanely psychopathic?" Some parents could do worse than being a little more tolerant about quiet kids, and a little more mindful of the effect this line of questioning has. That could be applied to anyone in life really.

But life is what it is and people can be insensitive, so developing some sort of way to cope and handle these stresses could work wonders, I think. Just sort of learning to "find your voice", and just, I dunno, lessons in how to accept oneself as is, would be very beneficial.

[lone*star]

Originally Posted by umm

My impression is that people are insecure because life is fundamentally competitive, and any deficiency one has will be put in the spotlight and exploited.

I'd say you are spot on... in your impression that is.

But those two words you started with, "My impression" are rather important. Why? Because it's often our impressions, rather than the truth/reality of a situation that tend to drive our own behaviour, and therefore the behaviour of others, and vice versa. So of course, if most people are thinking the same way about something, then that interactive, knock-on effect is magnified and even becomes inevitable. In fact our collective beliefs/thoughts/attitudes can end up shaping the destiny of our entire world!

But what if we're all wrong? Maybe life only seems 'fundamentally competitive' because that is our collective, perhaps even conditioned, impression of it. Maybe that's just what we've been brought up to believe. But what if we took on a completely different mind set? What if we could see the following as being true:

That life is all there is. And that it's all one reality, one unit, one essence, one being. That it is not competitive in the least, because it has no competition - there is nothing outside of life to threaten it in any way - even death itself is only an inherent part of life! It is only when we divide life up into fragments, and see everything as being separate and self-interested that life becomes harsh and competitive. Then everything and everyone is suddenly 'out for themselves' as a self-centred individual entity.

Can you see how our perception of the situation plays such a huge role in shaping our reality?
If we could change our perception of life, we could literally change the whole world with it.

[umm]

Originally Posted by lone*star

I'd say you are spot on... in your impression that is.

But those two words you started with, "My impression" are rather important. Why? Because it's often our impressions, rather than the truth/reality of a situation that tend to drive our own behaviour, and therefore the behaviour of others, and vice versa. So of course, if most people are thinking the same way about something, then that interactive, knock-on effect is magnified and even becomes inevitable. In fact our collective beliefs/thoughts/attitudes can end up shaping the destiny of our entire world!

But what if we're all wrong? Maybe life only seems 'fundamentally competitive' because that is our collective, perhaps even conditioned, impression of it. Maybe that's just what we've been brought up to believe. But what if we took on a completely different mind set? What if we could see the following as being true:

That life is all there is. And that it's all one reality, one unit, one essence, one being. That it is not competitive in the least, because it has no competition - there is nothing outside of life to threaten it in any way - even death itself is only an inherent part of life! It is only when we divide life up into fragments, and see everything as being separate and self-interested that life becomes harsh and competitive. Then everything and everyone is suddenly 'out for themselves' as a self-centred individual entity.

Can you see how our perception of the situation plays such a huge role in shaping our reality?
If we could change our perception of life, we could literally change the whole world with it.

I'm not gambling my happiness, security, and whatever else on a handful of what-ifs. Besides, you said it yourself: our thoughts, beliefs, impressions may shape the destiny of the world. I agree, and if we're right, then it ceases to be an impression and becomes, for better or worse, a reality. When the day comes that people stop being competitive and everyone changes their prespective and we all become one, then I'll rest easier. Till then, unless someone comes up with a very compelling reason for me to do otherwise, I'll go with what my own senses and analyses supply me.

What if I'm wrong? Then I'm wrong. I just don't think I am. I see no evidence that life is not this way. That it is this way actually doesn't bother me, any more than rain "bothers" me. If anything it's quite nerdily satisfying, like I've worked out a mechanism for something.

[tryinghard]

I think people are naturally insecure because we all have a fundamental need to belong. In evolutionary terms, we are biologically wired to want to stay within the pack and this strong, primal need for social contact continues to this day (which is why extreme forms of social isolation is used as torture and experiments on complete social isolation have had to be discontinued because people go quickly become too distressed...)

Everybody has at some point been shamed or rejected - we have all had experiences where we have faced the very primal fear of being outside the pack and therefore (according to the ancient part of our brains) in extreme and immediate danger. So we all fear rejection, there's nothing irrational about that. Because we have all at some point in our lives experienced that shame/terror we try to avoid it ever happening again. So everybody, at some level, wants people to like them and will worry when people don't.

The difference is in the generalisation. Just because one person doesn't like you, doesn't mean no one does. No one likes being disliked, but it is tolerable if you know that one person's opinion is not everyone's opinion. Being rejected by person a does not mean you will be rejected by person b. This, IMO, is what makes more secure people able to tolerate rejection better than more insecure people - they're not forming rigid opinions about themselves, others and the world from one experience. They don't believe that rejection says something about them as a person. That doesn't mean they never have self doubts and thoughts that maybe they are "the problem", it's more that they keep those thoughts in perspective so as not to completely destroy themselves and they're more likely to seek social support - just as my friend did last night. She told me that the reason she invited me out was because she realised she was sat at home obsessing about something that made her unhappy so she came to hang out with a friend to remind herself of the rest of the world, the fact she is liked, the fact I enjoy her company etc. That's part of how you keep your self esteem buoyant. Anyone - no matter how secure they started off - would end up with low self esteem if they were literally trapped in a situation where no one appeared to enjoy them and they were not welcomed into the group if they really believed they could not escape that. But it's all perception at the end of the day - you can always escape, you can always make changes.

But it makes total sense to have low self esteem if you were in that situation once upon a time.

[tryinghard]

Originally Posted by umm

I'm not gambling my happiness, security, and whatever else on a handful of what-ifs. Besides, you said it yourself: our thoughts, beliefs, impressions may shape the destiny of the world. I agree, and if we're right, then it ceases to be an impression and becomes, for better or worse, a reality. When the day comes that people stop being competitive and everyone changes their prespective and we all become one, then I'll rest easier. Till then, unless someone comes up with a very compelling reason for me to do otherwise, I'll go with what my own senses and analyses supply me.

What if I'm wrong? Then I'm wrong. I just don't think I am. I see no evidence that life is not this way. That it is this way actually doesn't bother me, any more than rain "bothers" me. If anything it's quite nerdily satisfying, like I've worked out a mechanism for something.

I would say that I have a similar belief that people will exploit my weaknesses for their own gain so I should hide my weaknesses. I would say this perpetuates insecurity, though, and makes me unhappy.

What I've learned from my new therapy is that when you have any rule that says "people" or "all people" or "always" or "never" or "everyone" or any generalisation, you are wrong. Some people are competitive. Some people will exploit your weaknesses for their gain. Some people will expose you at any opportunity. Some people want to humiliate you. These are definitely facts. But not everybody. I don't get any joy out of exposing others, I hate it. In fact, I have a very strong desire to protect others from embarrassment, I don't want to see them go through it. And I prefer to be curious and accepting of others than judge them. Making judgements makes me unhappy because I can't judge another without wondering whether I can meet my expectations too - I'm happier if I don't judge others.

A lot of people are like me. So I guess you could just say some people are accepting of others' differences, some people would hate to exploit others, and that would be just as accurate.

[umm]

Originally Posted by tryinghard

I think people are naturally insecure because we all have a fundamental need to belong. In evolutionary terms, we are biologically wired to want to stay within the pack and this strong, primal need for social contact continues to this day (which is why extreme forms of social isolation is used as torture and experiments on complete social isolation have had to be discontinued because people go quickly become too distressed...)

Everybody has at some point been shamed or rejected - we have all had experiences where we have faced the very primal fear of being outside the pack and therefore (according to the ancient part of our brains) in extreme and immediate danger. So we all fear rejection, there's nothing irrational about that. Because we have all at some point in our lives experienced that shame/terror we try to avoid it ever happening again. So everybody, at some level, wants people to like them and will worry when people don't.

The difference is in the generalisation. Just because one person doesn't like you, doesn't mean no one does. No one likes being disliked, but it is tolerable if you know that one person's opinion is not everyone's opinion. Being rejected by person a does not mean you will be rejected by person b. This, IMO, is what makes more secure people able to tolerate rejection better than more insecure people - they're not forming rigid opinions about themselves, others and the world from one experience. They don't believe that rejection says something about them as a person. That doesn't mean they never have self doubts and thoughts that maybe they are "the problem", it's more that they keep those thoughts in perspective so as not to completely destroy themselves and they're more likely to seek social support - just as my friend did last night. She told me that the reason she invited me out was because she realised she was sat at home obsessing about something that made her unhappy so she came to hang out with a friend to remind herself of the rest of the world, the fact she is liked, the fact I enjoy her company etc. That's part of how you keep your self esteem buoyant. Anyone - no matter how secure they started off - would end up with low self esteem if they were literally trapped in a situation where no one appeared to enjoy them and they were not welcomed into the group if they really believed they could not escape that. But it's all perception at the end of the day - you can always escape, you can always make changes.

But it makes total sense to have low self esteem if you were in that situation once upon a time.

Yeah, I mean, babies are insecure, hence they cry. A modicum of insecurity is not necessarily a bad thing, any more than pain is a bad thing. As you say, it encourages us to bond; it's one of the - what's the word, a biomechanic? - of social groups. Problems arise when that insecurity is not handled well, or abused.

The point you make about just one person liking you is interesting; and it's very helpful for insecure people to think about those things, that if one person likes you, all those negative opinions others may hold are null and void, without worth and indeed representative of those people's own problems. That's when the insecurity becomes easier to withstand. Getting to that point can be a real challenge though, particiularly for young people. But it's completely possible.

[tryinghard]

Originally Posted by umm

Getting to that point can be a real challenge though, particiularly for young people. But it's completely possible.

Couldn't agree more, it's really, really difficult. I think it's because people who are more insecure already have a bunch of negative stuff they want to believe about themselves and if feels dangerous to go against those thoughts.

For me it would be "my emotions are disgusting", "I'm a failure" and "it's my fault" (for any conflictual situation). Because it's frightening to take the risk of believing something else (what if I believed my emotions were ok then found out they weren't....then I'd experience all that shame doubled!) then I will listen to people who tell me my emotions are wrong and ignore anyone who tells me they're ok. It feels safer that way, even though it hurts more.

It's cognitive bias, essentially. We're very willing to filter out positives that go against our core beliefs because changing our beliefs is really terrifying. It can still be done but I think it's good to be patient with yourself because you're trying to change something that was originally developed to protect you. That's never going to be easy.

[umm]

Originally Posted by tryinghard

I would say that I have a similar belief that people will exploit my weaknesses for their own gain so I should hide my weaknesses. I would say this perpetuates insecurity, though, and makes me unhappy.

What I've learned from my new therapy is that when you have any rule that says "people" or "all people" or "always" or "never" or "everyone" or any generalisation, you are wrong. Some people are competitive. Some people will exploit your weaknesses for their gain. Some people will expose you at any opportunity. Some people want to humiliate you. These are definitely facts. But not everybody. I don't get any joy out of exposing others, I hate it. In fact, I have a very strong desire to protect others from embarrassment, I don't want to see them go through it. And I prefer to be curious and accepting of others than judge them. Making judgements makes me unhappy because I can't judge another without wondering whether I can meet my expectations too - I'm happier if I don't judge others.

A lot of people are like me. So I guess you could just say some people are accepting of others' differences, some people would hate to exploit others, and that would be just as accurate.

That's very true, as per your past post, not everyone is like that. However, when some person is faced with everyone in their lives seeming to want to put down, or take advantage, or ignore, or whatever other unhelpful thing, knowing academically that there are good people out there and believing it with your lizard brain are two separate propositions, and most people will go with the more immediate outpourings of the lower brain (can't remember what the thingummy is called) because - because we do. In those instances, they see no evidence of these good people and my thoughts are that at that point the self esteem must be bolstered, by a sort of rethinking in isolation of where one lies in the scheme of things compared to others. Sometimes - certainly in my experience - this requires a bit of a big shift whereby you go from being terrified and intimidated by everyone, to being, I dunno, contemptuous of them. Now, contempt is not a nice mindset and it can go wrong but I feel in these cases a brief dalliance with it is necessary, to allow yourself to feel a little power, a little inner strength, even in your own mind. Then one can build on that strength, and things get much easier as one starts to view oneself on a more equal footing with others.

It's hard to do, without that empirical evidence of even one other person championing your cause, but possible. If this sort of thing was, I dunno, taught in schools or something ... maybe that would help ...

[tryinghard]

Originally Posted by umm

That's very true, as per your past post, not everyone is like that. However, when some person is faced with everyone in their lives seeming to want to put down, or take advantage, or ignore, or whatever other unhelpful thing, knowing academically that there are good people out there and believing it with your lizard brain are two separate propositions, and most people will go with the more immediate outpourings of the lower brain (can't remember what the thingummy is called) because - because we do. In those instances, they see no evidence of these good people and my thoughts are that at that point the self esteem must be bolstered, by a sort of rethinking in isolation of where one lies in the scheme of things compared to others. Sometimes - certainly in my experience - this requires a bit of a big shift whereby you go from being terrified and intimidated by everyone, to being, I dunno, contemptuous of them. Now, contempt is not a nice mindset and it can go wrong but I feel in these cases a brief dalliance with it is necessary, to allow yourself to feel a little power, a little inner strength, even in your own mind. Then one can build on that strength, and things get much easier as one starts to view oneself on a more equal footing with others.

It's hard to do, without that empirical evidence of even one other person championing your cause, but possible. If this sort of thing was, I dunno, taught in schools or something ... maybe that would help ...

I know exactly what you mean. We learn these things through experience. This is how therapy works for a lot of people, actually. The therapist becomes the non-judgmental compassionate person so that the client can experience being accepted by another person, but I always go against that in my mind by thinking "yeah, but you're a therapist, this is just your job". I think you need to feel it not just think it but sometimes you get that from taking risks in your own life. For instance, I told someone I was having a panic attack the other day instead of trying to hide it and they were really nice about it and didn't judge me or treat me like a baby or anything. They were nice about it, let me get on with it, and then later they quietly asked me if I was feeling better and were happy when I was. So in some ways maybe it's plucking up the courage to show a little of yourself to others to find out what happens.

[umm]

Originally Posted by tryinghard

I know exactly what you mean. We learn these things through experience. This is how therapy works for a lot of people, actually. The therapist becomes the non-judgmental compassionate person so that the client can experience being accepted by another person, but I always go against that in my mind by thinking "yeah, but you're a therapist, this is just your job". I think you need to feel it not just think it but sometimes you get that from taking risks in your own life. For instance, I told someone I was having a panic attack the other day instead of trying to hide it and they were really nice about it and didn't judge me or treat me like a baby or anything. They were nice about it, let me get on with it, and then later they quietly asked me if I was feeling better and were happy when I was. So in some ways maybe it's plucking up the courage to show a little of yourself to others to find out what happens.

Yes, that's very true. It's a leap of faith, isn't it? I think nurturing one's passions is always to be encouraged because then you have this impetus, this drive (for geeks, that's called "obsession" ) that has the wonderfully terrifying result of flinging you out there where you're statistically more likely to come across these lovely people you describe. I applaud you for openly admitting (see; even the language I use here is that of secrecy and deception!) you were having a panic attack. I could never have done that in the past; it would have felt like letting in the murdering hordes with their knives, and thankfully panic attacks and general freakouts are largely a thing of my past and for when they're not, I have a surplus of nifty coping techniques - usually variations on the "fiddling with my glasses to look studious" theme - worthy of any AmDram society hehe

[lone*star]

Originally Posted by umm

I'm not gambling my happiness, security, and whatever else on a handful of what-ifs. Besides, you said it yourself: our thoughts, beliefs, impressions may shape the destiny of the world. I agree, and if we're right, then it ceases to be an impression and becomes, for better or worse, a reality.

So following your own logic then, you are already gambling your happiness, security etc. on a handful of [opposite] what-ifs - the only difference being that you're betting on your 'what-ifs' being true rather than those I suggested!

Can't you see the problem with that attitude though? Because if everyone follows your example (which it appears most people are) then your world is guaranteed to continue on its current path - one of insecurity, conflict, anxiety, death and destruction. There's not even a gamble involved - at least my alternative suggestion offered some hope!

When the day comes that people stop being competitive and everyone changes their prespective and we all become one, then I'll rest easier. Till then, unless someone comes up with a very compelling reason for me to do otherwise, I'll go with what my own senses and analyses supply me.

But people won't stop being competitive with each other until they know better - which is obviously not an easy thing to 'see'. So what the world really needs is intelligent people (like you) to set an example, and show the way ahead for those more ignorant among us. It won't start anywhere else unfortunately - it all has to start with you my friend, because you are a good representative of mankind.

What if I'm wrong? Then I'm wrong. I just don't think I am. I see no evidence that life is not this way. That it is this way actually doesn't bother me, any more than rain "bothers" me. If anything it's quite nerdily satisfying, like I've worked out a mechanism for something.

Well if you're wrong - again in agreement with your own logic - the only one to suffer the consequences will be you. Why? Because, as I alluded to earlier, you are not separate from life - in fact you are life itself! What you currently perceive of as other than you is none other than your self - not 'you' as merely a person of course, but your real self. Everything appears in you. You are creating your own world, and this is what you have created thus far. The important question is, are you happy with what you have created?

[umm]

Originally Posted by lone*star

So following your own logic then, you are already gambling your happiness, security etc. on a handful of [opposite] what-ifs - the only difference being that you're betting on your 'what-ifs' being true rather than those I suggested!

But to me, they're not what-if's. A what if is, in my opinion, idle fancy, or a desire for things to be different, better and so on. Nothing wrong with those things, but I see no mileage in acting as if they were the case today. I tried it. It didn't work. My understanding of the way people can be, and so on, is based on simply what I have observed and considered and taken into account. Here's a what-if I can get into; what if it was possible to change everyone's mind so that they weren't insecure? That's the question. I see no sense in repeating it; I suggest it's time now for answers.

Originally Posted by lone*star

Can't you see the problem with that attitude though? Because if everyone follows your example (which it appears most people are), your world is guaranteed to continue on its current path - one of insecurity, conflict, anxiety, death and destruction. There's not even a gamble involved - at least my alternative suggestion offered some hope!

Oh, I can completely see the problem with it. It's a terrible situation to be in, a far-from-optimal worldview. But me not liking it, or you not liking it, won't make it go away. Again, you say it yourself, that most people are following my example (though I would say it's more a case of people doing what they do and me cottoning on to it) so with that in mind, I am more comfortable working within what is actually present in front of me, otherwise I'll be at a disadvantage. As I say, if you or I can click our fingers and make it not so, make everyone happy and secure in themselves, we'd probably do it. I simply see no evidence of that ever having worked. But again, even then, I am not entirely convinced that's in our best interests. Some of our finest attributes are born in struggle and the fact remains that the universe is impersonal at best, so if we were all happy and secure, would we not lose something, some sort of awareness of that potential hostility? Insecurity is part of the human experience, part of life. Extreme insecurity - now there's a problem. But extreme, total, anything is probably far from ideal. The problem is not the existence of insecurity; it's our inability to handle it.

Originally Posted by lone*star

But people won't stop being competitive with each other until they know better - which is obviously not an easy thing to 'see'. So what the world really needs is intelligent people (like you) to set an example, and show the way ahead for those more ignorant among us. It won't start anywhere else unfortunately - it all has to start with you my friend, because you are a good representative of mankind.

Well, thank you. I do try. Trust me, I considered starting cults and all but I honestly think I lack the people skills - but you know, I do my bit. Here for instance. Have you noticed I never post about my problems? I've noticed you never have, and that I think is because we both want to help. But I quit here for a while and I've dialled back my involvement because I was spending alot of time getting nowhere. That's not my fault, not your fault, not anyone's fault. It's simply a function of the scale of the problem. People are messy and crazy. They do their own things, and I do mine. I can be responsible for the well-being of a small number of people around me, I can advise some others to the best of my ability but I can't hand-hold everyone through life. As for people not stopping being competitive with each other, well indeed. That might be great; or it might rain down a whole host of unforeseen problems. It's arguable that we got this far by being competitive, by sweating our insecurities. Is it so wrong to be cognizant of the problems and learn to work with them, rather than shuffle them away?

Originally Posted by lone*star

Well if you're wrong - again in agreement with your own logic - the only one to suffer the consequences will be you. Why? Because, as I alluded to earlier, you are not separate from life - in fact you are life itself! What you currently perceive of as other than you is none other than your self - not 'you' as merely a person of course, but your real self. Everything appears in you. You are creating your own world, and this is what you have created thus far. The important question is, are you happy with what you have created?

If I'm wrong - if some big change comes in and everyone stops being competitive and making others insecure, I will jump right on that bandwagon. I have no vested interest in being right. Show me it happening and I'll show you how willing I am to admit I was wrong all this time.

I am pretty happy. Things are good. I'm getting out and about and making others happy too. It helps that I am very much an optimist. Like I say, I don't post about my problems here because my problems are manageable, preferring to offer advice (such as I can give it) and engage in the odd philosophical discussion, like this one. Things are okay.

There are many people in the world that are happy, that aren't competitive, and that don't actively make others feel insecure. But what I have observed is that being that way is quite a luxury; many of those people have the benefit of things I think should be more prevalent; supportive family, some money in the bank, a face that fits, and so on. If we can mitigate against those things, work around them or learn now to live with them with strength and confidence, then we may be onto something good.

[lone*star]

Originally Posted by umm

But to me, they're not what-if's. A what if is, in my opinion, idle fancy, or a desire for things to be different, better and so on. Nothing wrong with those things, but I see no mileage in acting as if they were the case today. I tried it. It didn't work.

Wow, that immediately makes you different to the vast majority of the human race then, because I don't know anyone who doesn't have at least some desire for things to be different or better in some way. Perhaps you're more advanced than I suspected!

When I referred to 'your what-ifs' (as opposed to those I suggested myself) I was mainly referring to your personal fundamental beliefs about life - presumably you have some? And presumably that's why you also said later, "If I'm wrong..." [because you were referring to your own fundamental beliefs?]

I suggest it's time now for answers.

Well, you can count me in on that one - I'm all for finding solutions! One thing I've learned in life though is that human beings can't find the answers by themselves - ie. through their own thinking alone. That the truth, and therefore the answers we seek, are beyond our ability to work out between us intellectually (hence why things are still proceeding in the same general direction, as I said earlier). I think this is perhaps the area where we start to diverge, is it not? I get the impression that you see yourself very much as being merely a person only - someone who very much values human thought?

Oh, I can completely see the problem with it. It's a terrible situation to be in, a far-from-optimal worldview. But me not liking it, or you not liking it, won't make it go away. Again, you say it yourself, that most people are following my example (though I would say it's more a case of people doing what they do and me cottoning on to it) so with that in mind, I am more comfortable working within what is actually present in front of me, otherwise I'll be at a disadvantage.

Not necessarily. It's possible to be fully 'awakened' to the truth and yet at the same time operate within the false limitations of our unenlightened/ignorant society; at least for as long as you need to - ie. to get other people around you started on their way (which doesn't take long btw; it's all very simple stuff).

As I say, if you or I can click our fingers and make it not so, make everyone happy and secure in themselves, we'd probably do it. I simply see no evidence of that ever having worked. But again, even then, I am not entirely convinced that's in our best interests. Some of our finest attributes are born in struggle and the fact remains that the universe is impersonal at best, so if we were all happy and secure, would we not lose something, some sort of awareness of that potential hostility? Insecurity is part of the human experience, part of life. Extreme insecurity - now there's a problem. But extreme, total, anything is probably far from ideal. The problem is not the existence of insecurity; it's our inability to handle it.

There is no insecurity outside of human thought. It is we, with our false beliefs about everything, that create all sense of insecurity. Hence why I said that the answers won't be found through human thought either. [And you've now got me concerned again about your level of understanding of life.]

Well, thank you. I do try. Trust me, I considered starting cults and all but I honestly think I lack the people skills - but you know, I do my bit. Here for instance. Have you noticed I never post about my problems? I've noticed you never have, and that I think is because we both want to help. But I quit here for a while and I've dialled back my involvement because I was spending alot of time getting nowhere. That's not my fault, not your fault, not anyone's fault. It's simply a function of the scale of the problem. People are messy and crazy. They do their own things, and I do mine. I can be responsible for the well-being of a small number of people around me, I can advise some others to the best of my ability but I can't hand-hold everyone through life.

As I've said before, the truth is remarkably simple. In fact that's the trouble really - it is so simple that people just can't accept it! The problem isn't so much teaching people about reality, but rather their own egoic minds soon returning once more afterwards to take back control. And then it's a simple formula for disaster:

Egoic thinking = fragmentation of reality = false beliefs = insecurity/anxiety

(Which then of course returns to form a continuous loop.)

As for people not stopping being competitive with each other, well indeed. That might be great; or it might rain down a whole host of unforeseen problems. It's arguable that we got this far by being competitive, by sweating our insecurities. Is it so wrong to be cognizant of the problems and learn to work with them, rather than shuffle them away?

No one is suggesting 'shuffling problems away'. Yes, we've clearly got this far by being competitive, but do we want to be where we are now? And do we want to continue going down this route? Is this how life is meant to be? Ok, some people seem relatively happy, but there's surely too much pain and suffering around the world for this to be acceptable going forward?

If I'm wrong - if some big change comes in and everyone stops being competitive and making others insecure, I will jump right on that bandwagon. I have no vested interest in being right. Show me it happening and I'll show you how willing I am to admit I was wrong all this time.

As I suggested earlier, such big changes in life don't just happen if everyone is waiting for some magic bandwagon to appear first - you have to be brave and make the initial move yourself, otherwise nothing changes (at best!)

There are many people in the world that are happy, that aren't competitive, and that don't actively make others feel insecure. But what I have observed is that being that way is quite a luxury; many of those people have the benefit of things I think should be more prevalent; supportive family, some money in the bank, a face that fits, and so on. If we can mitigate against those things, work around them or learn now to live with them with strength and confidence, then we may be onto something good.

Ah, so you're now finally admitting that things could be better - that there might be a better way of doing things in life? I agree, but sadly, it's unlikely that most people will ever taste the benefits while such a high level of ignorance pervades humanity. God knows what your optimism is based on.