Hyperventilating solutions?

[rackha]

Hello everyone!

I have agrophobia / SA / any term you would like to use. I am at the point where i feel like if i could control my breathing i would be 95% of the way of getting rid of this stupid affliction, so i have been focusing a lot of my energy on sorting this issue.

I have been doing research into this and a coulpe of interesting things, which if anyone out there is also overbreathing then i would like to hear any thoughts or anything!

The first is the work of the Russian doctor Buteyko, which i imagine alot of you have heard of. The main premise seems to be about retraining your breathing so as to not hyperventilate, and is mostly written about curing asthma, where lots of studies have shown it to have an 60-70 cure rate, which is absolutly amazing! The key point being with hyperventilating depleting CO2 levels in the blood, which makes you breath more which futher depletes CO2 etcetc. So this method says to do an hour or more of 'reduced breathing' a day so your body learns to accept the correct amount of oxygen and so on. This is something which is widely reported to work wonders but takes a few months for any big changes to take place.

The other thing im interested in, which i have just come accross really is PH balencing. When overbreathing you have less CO2 in your blood, which stops oxygen getting around the system. A change of CO2 levels changes the PH level of the blood, which gets picked up in the brain, and your body wants you to breath more (when in fact it should be breathing less), but the more you breath the more this downward spiral of breathing continues. At the same time your kidneys detect a ph level change and try and balence it out in its own way, by doing something with bicarbonate to regulate the ph level of the blood. The interesting thing that for those amount us (maybe its just me) who seem to chromincally overbrathe or at least hyperventialte a lot will run out of the bicarbonate reserve, and therefore when we start to hyperventilate cannot bring our breathing back to normal as quickly as we should be able to, which is obviously sometimes a terrifying experience!

One suggested solution is to take bicarb of soda (in small amounts as some people should not do this apparently). I have only just started this today so will have to keep this updated if it works.

I know its unlikely to find a solution which doesnt take months (maybe thats me being negative) but ive got my fingers crossed it will help.

What does anyone think? Bear in mind i have just read this all on the net so may not be accurate!

[Hackpen]

Your post caught my eye because recently ive had problems with my breathing. The main way im affected is whats termed as 'failure to get a satisfying breath' which is made worse because i get the urge to yawn a lot.
When i yawn or take a deep breath it often feels like my lungs are full before i reach the point where i feel ive got a full breath. If you dont have the symptoms that wont make much sense but if youve had it you will know what i mean.

Anyway, I googled and found it has a name - chronic hyperventilation syndrome, heres a useful site which gives an overview and links to other related sites http://www.erzo.org/kimberly/health/HVS/

I found I get it when im taking a break from alcohol, which i also googled and found hyperventilation is a symptom of stopping alcohol, only lasts a few days after stopping thankfully.
Ive also noticed i get it occassionally in supermarkets, which is probably anxiety related due to shallow breathing. I hold a lot of tension in my stomach muscles when anxious, which will stop me breathing into my diapragm properly, which seems to be the root of the problem. I found sitting calmly and breathing through my nose into my diaphragm, so my stomach rises helps. Also resisting the urge to yawn or take too deep a breath helps.
I dont have it when i wake and only tend to get it during the afternoon and evening, which is probably due to poor breathing over the course of the day.
Great post btw, worthy of a bump! A lot of the symptoms attributed to it in the site i linked to are typical sa/anxiety ones. If relief from some of these can be found by becoming aware of and correcting our breathing then thats gotta be good!

[ernie]

Originally Posted by Hackpen

Your post caught my eye because recently ive had problems with my breathing. The main way im affected is whats termed as 'failure to get a satisfying breath' which is made worse because i get the urge to yawn a lot.
When i yawn or take a deep breath it often feels like my lungs are full before i reach the point where i feel ive got a full breath. If you dont have the symptoms that wont make much sense but if youve had it you will know what i mean

I know exactly what you mean, I think, I describe it to people as not there not being "enough room at the top" ( er...of the breath lol ).

I've got to say for me, anything that involves focusing on the breathing is a big no no, you know - I would even go as far as to say that doing "breathing excercises" has a lot to do with the problems I experience on a daily basis. I've been an ardent follower of the alexander technique for many years, although I kind of stopped it cause of problems I have with anything that involves having to just relax and let something happen - my problems in this are probably being why breathing exercises are so bad for me. But still, the only time in about the last 6 years I have felt able to breath normally was when I was lying in the semi supine position and had managed to completely disconnect from any sense of doing anything for a fleeting moment. Kind of difficult to describe.

[Hackpen]

I know exactly what you mean, I think, I describe it to people as not there not being "enough room at the top" ( er...of the breath lol ).

Thats exactly it ernie, its bloody awful innit! Im fortunate that i only get it occasionally these days. I had it for a sustained period when i was coming off meds years ago.

I know what you mean about the breathing exercises possibly making it worse, cos your focus is drawn to your breathing more.
Slow, not neccesarily deep breaths helped me, about 4 or 5 breaths per minute. I also read how breathing through the nose helps get the balance right.
Ive just been for a good walk and that helped as i felt it coming on earlier. Its different for everyone though, I read that some people have been unable to exercise because of it.

Laying down doesnt help for me, Im better sat or stood upright. I avoid large meals when ive got it too as that makes it worse.

Sorry to hear youve got it so bad. Do you have it from the moment you wake and does it disturb your sleep?
All the best

[ernie]

Originally Posted by Hackpen

Thats exactly it ernie, its bloody awful innit! Im fortunate that i only get it occasionally these days. I had it for a sustained period when i was coming off meds years ago.

I know what you mean about the breathing exercises possibly making it worse, cos your focus is drawn to your breathing more.
Slow, not neccesarily deep breaths helped me, about 4 or 5 breaths per minute. I also read how breathing through the nose helps get the balance right.
Ive just been for a good walk and that helped as i felt it coming on earlier. Its different for everyone though, I read that some people have been unable to exercise because of it.

Laying down doesnt help for me, Im better sat or stood upright. I avoid large meals when ive got it too as that makes it worse.

Sorry to hear youve got it so bad. Do you have it from the moment you wake and does it disturb your sleep?
All the best

Hi, thx for the interest

fortunately, its a lot better now than what it used to be - the worst thing now is that I just can't ever allow myself to get out of breath, because it takes literally weeks to recover from it if I do. Some days I can walk around pretty fast, some days I can't walk around slowly without constantly breathing "right to the top", depends on how my breathing is on the day really - tends to come in waves rather than change day to day. Feels like my breathings been in chains ever since my first panic attack in 2004, it's never ever been the same since, its always there in the background. For years, I used to wake up and feel it kick in after about 2 or 3 seconds, haven't felt like this for ages tho.I'm supposed to have asthma which might not help, hadn't had problems with it for like 15 years tho, it feels the same tho just like I've got something there all the time, I remember when my doctor was on the verge of having me admitting to hospital my breathing was so bad, I could still blow 580 l/min on a peak flow meter, which was ultimately the reason she didn't send me
Nightime in the summer especially can be very bad, although since my chronic episode in 2007 ( bought on by the stress of the local chavs ) it's been getting better steadily, worry is tho that I know a sudden dose of stress would set me back years, potentially

So yeah, for me it's certainly not these isolated instances of panic, I've lived with it every waking moment for 6 years.

For me tho, I need to get my mind off it as soon as I can - reading aloud I have found invaluable, particularly something challenging such as speeches from shakepshere's plays. Could be the natural rythm of breathing it gets me into.

[Hackpen]

Hi ernie, good to hear youve got it under some kind of control.

From what Ive read most doctors find it hard to diagnose because it has so many symptoms which may mimic other illness. Similar to yours thinking it was asthma related. Its incredible what stress and anxiety can do to our bodies. I was surprised when i read the list of symptoms related to hyperventilation, many which ive experienced at times.

Thats interesting what you say about reading aloud, Il try that. I used to do that when i was following the doctor richards course, reading in 'slow talk' out loud. I live away from friends and family so i dont speak out loud as much as i would if i had company. Ive got a one year old daughter but we dont have the sustained convos i do with adults. Il try reading aloud to her more, i doubt she will care what im reading. Good advice, cheers

[rackha]

Hello both of you!

Just some responces to things mentioned in the above posts...

Certainly right about the nose breathing. From everything i have read it pretty much says you should never be breathing through your mouth, ever (breathing in anyways), even when excersising (lots of running advice i have been reading says you are excersiing to hard if you have to breath in through your mouth / cannot hold a convo while running). Aside from the fact that breathing through your nose filters the air in a way the mouth cannot do, the nose has its own air control system. By this if you are breathing too much you nasel passagways in some ways will contrict (or produces mucas) to regulate airflow, which is why a lot of people who breath through the mouth say they have to because of having a permanently blocked nose as it is trying to reduce the amount of air coming though the nose!

Regarding excersise induced hyperventilating, i think that there is a slightly differnt thing that can be going on physiologically here, which is what led me to the bicarb of soda stuff. Depending on fitness it seems everyone would start to hyperventialte when a certain amount of exhertion is reached, which is why some athletes take the soda so this amount is raised. Think fitness is a factor here...!

I think the most importent thing talked about though, is awareness of your own breathing. In my view, breathing, like balancing, swallowing or other bodily things that should be kept functioning at the subconcious level, will always mess up if thought about too much. This creates a tough problem, as for those of us who have become chromic hyperventialtors a certain amount of retraining has to be done every day, which brings it more into our concious mind, especially when a lot of retraining (like the Buteyko method) results in 20 mins+ of feeling suffocated (which is hard to ignore!) each session, while trying to retrain the body to accept a new blood PH balenece.

A big step i have made in the last few weeks is a logical one. The root behind my breathing problems, and i suspect others also, is the beleif that we actually have some problem with our breathing, which stops up breathing correctly, which brings it into our concious, and thefore makes it impossable to breath properly as we are thinking about it all the time. When doing some 30 min relaxation MP3 i bought off amazon, i realised by the end i was breathing normally, now if i actually had a physiolligcal problem, the fact that i was not thinking about my breathing shouldnt have make me breath easyier. Now i tell myself to quickly check in on my breathing, ie check it's not audible, breathing from the diafram, and through the nose, and the think about relaxation, confident in the thought that all will be ok as long as i dont think about it. I know a lot of the time a thought like 'it will be fine if i dont think about it' actually makes one think about the thing they are trying to avoid, so maybe just think 'im going to think about relaxtion' or something, confident in the back of your mind your breathing does not need any attention! Im not an expert at this yet, but has certainly helped (and got me out of the house a whole lot more!!)

[ernie]

Hi Racka

interesting post, interesting subject. and bewildering.

hmmm...you obviously have looked into more than I have. Kind of makes me feel my bury my head in the sand, don't focus on it mentaility might not have been the right thing to do

I'm not sure I can remember what it was like to hyper-ventilate before it became so entrenched in me. Tell me, do you have any problems with getting out of breath normally? In the light of what you've just wrote, I'm referring to getting out of breath before kind of "natural" hyperventilation is reached.

I remember a time , still amazes me to think about it. My breathing had been pretty bad, took a minute to walk up the stairs that sort of thing. Then one day when this was going on, I cricked my neck badly. Well, it can't have been that bad cause I went out of the house that afternoon - and I was walking around fast with no problem at all, except a pain in my neck. Next day, my neck is miraculously almost completely better, but the breathing is as bad as it was before I cricked it. So wierd...just having something else major to focus on gets rid of it completely. Before my breathing went like this, I'd spent 2 and a half years with foot problems, having special shoes made and hardly being able to walk sometimes. When the panic attacks started, that more or less cleared up overnight - I've got a long history of switching from one somato form to another

On a different note, my breathing today has been quite something - doesn't often happen, but every time I've breathed in deeply today and sighed - which has been about every 15 seconds, I've felt such a kind of release, almost like I've been suffocated and then the feeling of being able to breath again. I've got to say, it's been very pleasurable - akin, possibly, to a mild amyl-nitrate induced "rush", I was in blissfull ecstacy for a time this afternoon because of it, and thats no lie! Do you ever get that? Either of you?

[Hackpen]

Hi rackha, I read some similar stuff to you about nose breathing, so thats been something ive been trying, whehn exercising too. I had a good walk on the moor yesterday with my daughter in the back pack and i completely fogot about my breathing. Im occassionaly affected by it during weight training.
I do think some of its psychosomatic, or is made worse if you focus on it because you can become more anxious and hyperventilate even more, which creates a vicious cycle.

I notice you mentioned swallowing too, I also had a problem with that and while cooking I used to get very tense and that brought the shallow breathing on, so by the time id cooked my meal i struggled to eat it. If my wife cooks for me i dont get it as bad, so thats a great excuse ha ha!

I agree with what youre saying about trying not to focus on it too much. Its usually only when im having a bad breathing day that my focus is drawn to it and that is when i will try to regulate it.

Hi ernie, good to hear you had a good breathing day yesterday, hope its continued today. If im having a bad breathing day, it is wonderful to get a full breath and that satisfied feeling that goes with it.
Just a thought, have you been tested for anaemia? I have a friend who has it and she gets extremely breathless due to low oxygen levels in the blood.
What rackha said about non audible breathing into the diaphragm while taking time out to relax usually works for me. Also avoiding the urge to yawn or take a deep breath each time it occurs has helped, then when I allow myself a yawn i usually get one 'right to the top' lol
Good advice from both of you, cheers, all the best

[rackha]

Hello again!

Yes is is interested. As it seems to be the case with anything to do with the mind / body, you can keep on researching and keep on finding out fascinating stuff, but it's a lot of information to retain!

Im not sure exactly what you mean by getting out of breath normally. I think im not sure when excersing where the out of breath from hyperventilating begins and when the out-of-breath from without hyperventilaing would have begun, if that makes sense. After chronincally doing it it is hard to remember what it's like to be normally out of breath!!

Regarding your body problems, it's such a complicated thing (the body) with so many unexplainables i wouldnt know where to start with your issue with 1 transforming issue

Yes sometimes i have experienced the sometimes-being-able to get a big breath rush, which is good, but according to old buteyko is one of the things which keeps overbreathing chronic. The reasoning is when your an over breather breathing at the normal level (for a non-overbreather) your body thinks you are under-breathing, and tries to get you to get more air by telling you you need to have a big breath / yawn / sigh. If you then give in to this urge it feels great, but means you body has got the extra un-needed air it wanted and next time the same thing process will happen, i.e. your body tricking you into thinking you are not breathing enough. Apparently even 1 sigh every 7 minutes is enough to keep an chronic-hyperventilators body hyperventilaing. In the books i have read the most importnent excersise is doing say a 20 min session every day of reduced breathing, which invovles breathing lightly enough so you feel a mild (note the word MILD!) suffocation, which over time should re-train the mind / body into accepting the correct amount of air. But for this to work you have to not do ANY big breaths of sighs / yawn etc during this time, which is very hard as it's so rewarding to do so, and feels unnatural not to. Have to be careful here that dont go over the top with this one!

Regarding the walking on the moors, that would make me thing i can breath fine just because i wasent thinking about it, if i actually had a physical breathing problem (as opposed to mostly-mental) it would prob not dissapear one day and come back the next day!

Swallowing does seem to be a common one, similar thought process to most panic things ie 'what would happen if i couldnt swallow this.....oh bugger!'

a tough subject!

[rackha]

Ok, my final thoughts on the subject have been feeling a lot better with it the last few days - my thought process now...


Notice Hyperventilating symptoms, (cant get proper breath, dizzy, other-worldy etc)

Check breathing from diafram, through nose, and quiet as possible

If i notice my breathing process is fine the sytomes may be being caused by pure anxiety about something (could be the breathing) so now i just beleive that if i relax my check muscles and drop sholders and relax my mine the breathing goes back to normal.

Seems to have worked the last few days. The only thing that stops it is if you dont trust the process to work, a funny one here. Also i read the other day int the Anxiety and Phobia workbook how harmless all the related symtoms are and why they are causes, which helps me to not let them bother me too much (even though they are horrable!)

[rackha]

Another must read for the problem breathers

http://www.smilingbackmethod.com/articles/asthma.htm

From on all my reading, a lot of asthma related articles are just as relevent if you dont have asthma but are a overbreather / hyperventilator, as overbreathing + the asthma gene = asthma, overbreathing without the asthma gene is just overbreathing (and still horrible)

hope it helps someone

[Warmer]

If we're talking about the same thing here, in my experience you just have to forget about it by refusing to engage with it and distracting yourself.

Most of the time its caused by your mental state and mood. I could be wrong as im not an expert but it seems this is the case.

[rackha]

I agree, thats what it says on the link really. By ignoring the suffocation feeling and not trying to breath your body just naturally will kick back in. Sort of like the trust excersise you used to do at school, where you drop backwards and someone will catch you, apart from it's all internal.

I thought the way the link put it was clear and has helped me enormously