"chatting up" females - my ultimate problem

Markymark · #1 20th May 2006, 05:15

Hello peeps.

Please don't think i'm shallow because of the title of the post! Just gimme a chance to explain. Sorry for the long post.

To cut a long story short....
I'm 24, I didn't leave my house for 3 years and i was at rock bottom, but i eventually started CBT in 2003 and through hard work i have rebuilt my life. I have loads of amazing friends and family, an active social life, and no remaining typical SA problems anymore.

I've been through a lot in the past 6 years, but one thing has been at the core of all my problems and that is my interaction with females.

Through the years of studying my life and bettering myself i have found out that the root of all my problems has been my lack of confidence with females, and is the only remaining piece to the puzzle. Through all the hard things i've had to do to get to this point, there has nothing that has been remotely this hard to conquer. Once i get past this i can honestly say i have conquered SA.

I thought i had done it about 1 and a half years ago. At 23 i met my first ever girlfriend (thru chatting on the net. I can flirt online a bit) and we had a great relationship for a year. I was so confident and happy. I started Uni in Derby away from my home, so i could be with her. Unfortunately we broke up back in January this year and ever since i have been heartbroke and trying to 'get back out there' on the dating scene (or whatever it is).

Being at Uni, i have literally been going out to pubs and clubs about 3 nights a week on average since January. In that time i have never made 'a move' on a girl.

I can read 'the signs' and i have had attention from lots of girls over this period of time, but i have never made that move.

It is like there is something missing in me, i know when to go for it, but i don't know what to do. How to make that move. I have never ever done it in my whole life, i don't have any experience, any skill or knowledge when it comes to this point in the 'courtship' process.

I see so many of my mates or lads at Uni going up to a girl on a night out, starting a conversation out of nothing, a complete stranger, and coming out having made a friend or getting a number or more. It amazes me how it is done.

Don't get me wrong, i can talk to a girl (if shes in our group of people), have a good intelligent conversation, make her laugh and have a great time. Its just that i have very little flirting skills, and i don't show my feelings towards her if i fancy her.

I am at a loss here and panic attacks are a common occurance nowadays when i'm on a night out due to this problem. I am usually relaxed, not going out to pick up girls and just have a good laugh, but there always comes a point in a night out when i feel useless and the panic attack happens.

I don't really know what im looking for from this post. I don't think i'm looking for 'techniques' or anything. I know what to do, i just cannot bring myself to do it somehow. Something is blocking me. Can anyone relate?

I'm 24, at university, i should be having the best years of my life especially after all i have overcome. I needed to get this out. Thanks for reading.

Mark.

(is there any kind of courses where you can learn to flirt or something? )

mico · #2 20th May 2006, 12:04

Sounds like you're doing well Marky.

I think the only advice I can give you here, is not to put too much emphasis on the outcome. It's easy to think you've failed because you don't get the reaction you expected, but that's not the case at all.

I go out, and I see blokes persistantly trying to cop off with girls and they're blatantly getting nowhere, yet they keep trying, it doesn't put them off.

Then other times I see blokes walk up to girls all like 'Hi, you're pretty good looking'. Result? Phone number, date, etc. It can be that easy.

The important part, as Tim says, is to take a risk. Maybe you want to try it on someone you don't see out every week to minimise that risk a little until you find your footing, but you need to learn that you can take that risk and you head won't fall off or anything. And as with everything it gets easier with time. The important bit is that first step, the bit where you actually do it. Take a CBT approach.

Good luck with it.

musiq · #3 20th May 2006, 15:20

I can relate to a lot of what you are saying. Over the past few years my SA has improved significantly yet when it comes to women i'm still stuck in neutral! Fear of rejection combined with an overwhelming sense that my object of affection could do better than me are the main sticky points for me!! Oh add in a complete lack of experience too at the age of 25!

If you are confident of chatting to females then maybe you should try different avenues. Speed dating? Take a couple of mates along...meet some girls...this way you are talking to strangers..but straight away have a common topic to chat about (the event itself)...then at the afterparty you can talk to someone you got along with and get their number. No anxiety about the approach and the flirting may come naturally as you build rapport. It's a theory i have no affirmative practical results to talk of as i haven't had the bottle yet!!

kjsharpe · #4 20th May 2006, 17:22

My problem is the same - but I am female so it's slightly different. In the past I have always drank to reduce the nerves and be able to chat - but then I've gone OTT on the drink and ended up making the problem a million times worse. Noone likes to see a drunk lady do they.

Not much advice to give - just be yourself and realise that there is someone out there for you. I'm 30 now but haven't given up yet! You're still a baby.

I hope you find the woman of your dreams. The girl who broke your heart just wanting the right one for you.

Good luck
x

kjsharpe · #5 20th May 2006, 17:24

sorry that should be wasn't - not wanting

I'm sure you gathered that

Keep smiling

Markymark · #6 20th May 2006, 18:18

Thankyou all.

Yep i agree with you all. I am putting too much emphasis on the outcome sometimes and i should relax more and just be playful.

I actually did speed dating a few months ago in the Uni, it was good fun. Nothing came of it but it let me see that i can chat to girls.

I guess i just need to practice the art of flirting and not care what the outcome is.

cheers people.
Mark

hardy · #7 21st May 2006, 23:31

If you have an active social life you are half way there . Watch out for members of your social group of the opposite sex who maybe interested in you ,especially friends of friends that youve met for the first time. don't waste so much time thinking about conventional "pick up " techniques of absolute strangers in pubs and clubs etc. that takes high self confidence (which as an ex SAer youre unlikely to have).
ONe Saer technique is to just hint at doing things together whilst talking about movies or music etc that you'd like to see without actually saying in so many words . Women are more intuitive than men and they often pick up what you mean .A refusal is a series of changes of subject or egsaggerated dislike of every movie etc you suggest! Wheras an acceptance can be the opposite . Enthusiasm and often hints back . All without the need for actual open rejection or acceptance words!
Neither side admitting whats going on!
Snag is sometimes you really are just wanting to talk about your favourite movie! which spoils the conversation because she thinks youre hinting!

Tom- · #8 22nd May 2006, 16:03

Wow sounds like you have made a lot of progress, you seem to be in good shape for the next step

WEST · #9 22nd May 2006, 19:52

Hi

Well done on getting almost over your SA. You must have really worked at it.

I 24 and have just starting to understand what SA is and that I think I suffer from it pretty bad. I'm female and feel too anxious to flirt with men or make the first move (even though often I would like to!). I know what you mean about feeling as though you are missing out. When you are 24, you want to be having the time of your life and it is horrible to think time is slipping by when you arn't making the most of it. On a night out, I see my friends (which isn't many because of SA!) talking to anyone and everyone without a care in the world and in makes me feel blue.

I think speed dating sounds like a great idea, if you dare try it. The thought of it petrifies me!! I always blush when I see a guy I fancy. Can you imagine me at a speed dating party, I would spend the whole night like a beetroot.

WEST

Markymark · #10 22nd May 2006, 20:13

Thanks Tom and Hardy.

Yeah i've read that website and some 'seduction' books but i don't agree at all with them. I don't like the way they suggest you should behave in a non genuine way.

I just want to be confident in my own attractiveness and be able to flirt in a fun, happy way. It's just a learning curve i guess.

lol West you made me laugh. I would recommend anyone for speed dating, it really was good. Everyone is in a nervous state when it starts so thats something you can talk about straight away.

One thing that helped me get this far is doing things which you think you cant do, or are afraid of. I must keep this in mind.

Thanks
mark.

NoName · #11 22nd May 2006, 23:22

Every relationship I've built hasn't been an instant flirt n date thing. I meet 'em in clubs sometimes. It's usually chemical. NOthing to do with what I say. I can't shout or hear in those places anyway. I had a girl hold my hand all night a few months back. I've met her before and I do know her sister. We're both pretty shy people. I hope I see her again.

I think, if you wanna meet someone like you and someone who understands you, don't go for the first boat that passes your way so to speak. You need to find people of like mind, who have a similar interest to you, of those people get closer to those who understand you and if they prove to be trustworthy over time then stick to them. Likeminds tend to crowd together (unless they have SA

). I think you'll stand a better chance of meeting someone that way.

Flirting is over rated. If he/she likes you, it'll be in there eyes and actions anyway. Buy them a drink, ask them their name. Just simple things. Don't be smarmy, don't try too hard. And most of all, when ppl say be yourself, they mean it totally. I can speak from experience that women love a chap that can enjoy himself. Stay happy, don't seem too needy. Just try to enjoy yourself. She'll get to know you for what you are.

Cool,
Nick :D

Peyre · #12 23rd May 2006, 17:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Markymark

Don't get me wrong, i can talk to a girl (if shes in our group of people), have a good intelligent conversation, make her laugh and have a great time. Its just that i have very little flirting skills, and i don't show my feelings towards her if i fancy her.

[/FONT]

this is the important part. I'm no expert though

You are making the mistake of thinking that flirting is a neccessity. Its not. Some girls hate it, some like it of course, but a true relationship will never depend on how well you flirt.

You have humour, intelligence and you're probably polite too. Job done, you would be an excellent catch for any girl.

Just remember that. Of course you can always try these courses, but if it doesn't feel natural then I wouldn't bother.

CatchMeIfYouCan · #13 23rd May 2006, 17:43

(as a female) I always find the way to 'flirt' (works both ways) is to adopt a tongue in cheek, having a laugh/messing around type thing (works everytime!) anyone that takes themselves too seriously and seems well rehearsed/robotic, and comes across with a chat up line or something, to me is always a turn off for me personally, and just makes me wanna laugh (not in a bad way you understand just think that things should be more natural) just go with the flow and don't obssess/fixate about it if you see what I mean.
Maybe that will help

Markymark · #14 23rd May 2006, 18:15

Thankyou very much Poda, best bit of advice i've had for a while.

Cheers Peyre, i agree thats the important part. I think my lack of success is because i don't make the leap of letting girls know how much i like them.

I think without a little bit of flirting, or some signs to let her know you fancy her, girls can often consider you more of a 'friend' type than a potential partner if you take too long to move in. Am i way off the mark here?

Mark.

Peyre · #15 23rd May 2006, 18:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Markymark

Thankyou very much Poda, best bit of advice i've had for a while.

Cheers Peyre, i agree thats the important part. I think my lack of success is because i don't make the leap of letting girls know how much i like them.

I think without a little bit of flirting, or some signs to let her know you fancy her, girls can often consider you more of a 'friend' type than a potential partner if you take too long to move in. Am i way off the mark here?

Mark.

yes that's always a danger. If this was to happen, I'd just sit down with them and explain my feelings for them. Worth a go, i suppose.

SAPPHIREblue · #16 23rd May 2006, 23:22

I think you definitely shouldn't put pressure on yourself to flirt. If you met your last girlfriend on line maybe you should take that approach again. That way you get to know the person before you meet them and can be more honest about your feelings, hopefully letting her know you'd be interested in the possibility of more than friendship before you meet.
As other postees have said, flirting happens when you're comfortable with someone and I reckon all this "how to date" stuff is rubbish. Humans have managed to get it on for thousands of years without oprah telling them how. Just my opinion.

Jessie Phillips · #17 23rd May 2006, 23:34

Flirting is a major problem for me too. It's not helped by the fact that I think I have to be a big achiever and potential breadwinner before I become an attractive dating prospect. It's also not helped by the fact that I think my flat has to be tidy - you know, just in case. Maybe I'm a perfectionist.

whistling-duck · #18 24th May 2006, 12:15

Wow - Markymark, you've come a hell of a long way, and only on good days with a tail wind do I feel like I'm anywhere near where you are! I am getting better though, and can really relate to the "glass ceiling" of dating - it's bloody hard to break through. Definately don't think the "how to get women into bed" type advice will be helpful, and it doesn't sound like you're the kind of guy to want that. IMHO I think you should work with the female friends you have or make in the future. My biggest regret in life is not being braver and asking out some of the great women I've met and made friends with. And I think they'd be less likely to say no (fear of rejection is probably a big part of your anxiety - it is mine!) and also you know what you are getting. Keep us all posted on how it goes, and I think we should be reading about it in the SA success stories section very soon. :D

Markymark · #19 24th May 2006, 18:23

Thankyou very much Whistling Duck for the kind words.

I went to a SA support group last night and got a lot of this off my chest, and got some great feedback.
Some suggestions were to break it down into little pieces. First of all try smiling and saying hi to someone. Next time, try having a conversation to someone, then next time try offering your number to someone.

I don't know why i am worried so much about it, probably because i've never tried it before. I think after i've done it a few times (rejection or non rejection) i will feel very comfortable doing it, touch wood.

Mark.

jontyboyoh · #20 24th May 2006, 18:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jessie Phillips

Flirting is a major problem for me too. It's not helped by the fact that I think I have to be a big achiever and potential breadwinner before I become an attractive dating prospect. It's also not helped by the fact that I think my flat has to be tidy - you know, just in case. Maybe I'm a perfectionist.

Hear hear!...... Fcuking hear hear in fact!

Jessie Phillips · #21 24th May 2006, 19:43

Quote:

Hear hear!...... Fcuking hear hear in fact!

I'm perversely pleased to hear that I'm not the only one who suffers from this problem - so maybe we can sort each other out! I'll give it some thought and post in more detail about how I feel, either a bit later today, or tomorrow, maybe in this thread, or maybe in a new one.

jontyboyoh - you're a star, thanks for the validation, it's really appreciated.

Misplaced Child · #22 25th May 2006, 17:46

You would think that an SA fella would make the perfect candidate for any upwardly-mobile, girl-about-town. However, they seem to be drawn to these brash and bold headstrong non-SA chaps with all the fancy fineries; most of these blokes will turn out to be cruel heartbreakers in the end. An SA chap would make a real perfect gentleman due to the fact that being typically a loner, all spare time will be devoted to entertaining the special lady. A lack of friends and hobbies means that SA chap will not be stumbling indoors after a night on the piss with a bunch of obnoxious lads, and mistaking the inside of the wardrobe for the loo and leaving a hefty dump over the ladies fine footware. An SA chap would tolerate shopping and chick flicks for the sake of the lady, not having anything else to do why wouldn't he ?
The docile and non argumentative SA chap should be a godsend for the lady in comparison to the loud and brash non-SA fella who will only want to command and never be subdued, resulting in the lady being headbutted in the face and having a "falling down the stairs" accident. The placid SA chap would rather stand there and let his precious flower vent her anger, slam doors and let all her bad vibes out .
If there ever was to be a wedding night, between Mr SA Chap and Ms girl-about-town the lady can rest assured that the groom will definately turn up in time, owed to the fact that SA chap only has the company of maybe some online forum members for the stag night. There will be no last night of freedom bonk with a stripper for the groom, because there is no best mate who will be arranging such sordid things.

Overall the SA chap is the difinitive gentleman, shame that these gurlys don't see it that way and end up taking home some wrong'un.

Markymarky make use of these facts next time you go on the pull and emphasise how you would be a man like no other shes had before. You would make the perfect husband.

Peyre · #23 25th May 2006, 19:12

lol, nicely put

jontyboyoh · #24 25th May 2006, 21:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jessie Phillips

I'm perversely pleased to hear that I'm not the only one who suffers from this problem - so maybe we can sort each other out! I'll give it some thought and post in more detail about how I feel, either a bit later today, or tomorrow, maybe in this thread, or maybe in a new one.

jontyboyoh - you're a star, thanks for the validation, it's really appreciated.

Your appreciation is met with my appreciation!!!! Seriously!!!......

I try not to be glad of the attention I get from people (esp girls). It prob is perfectionism. Do you often put women on a pedastle? I do! I don't think I'm as bad as I was, though....

I think the breadwinner thing comes from the fact that I don't work and my dad has always worked constantly, so he has always been a 'real' man, even though I believe him to be very insecure and closed off from the world!..... Plus, my parents are quite old fashioned as it is (my mum makes the tea for the bread-winner; father's not allowed to show any emotion etc).....

Am I going off the point? Probably, but its just a bit of background and stuff to so with self-worth!....... The bottom line, however, is that I think I need to do something spectacular for a job before any girl will consider me worthy enough!

Cheers again!

jontyboyoh · #25 25th May 2006, 21:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Misplaced Child

You would think that an SA fella would make the perfect candidate for any upwardly-mobile, girl-about-town. However, they seem to be drawn to these brash and bold headstrong non-SA chaps with all the fancy fineries; most of these blokes will turn out to be cruel heartbreakers in the end. An SA chap would make a real perfect gentleman due to the fact that being typically a loner, all spare time will be devoted to entertaining the special lady. A lack of friends and hobbies means that SA chap will not be stumbling indoors after a night on the piss with a bunch of obnoxious lads, and mistaking the inside of the wardrobe for the loo and leaving a hefty dump over the ladies fine footware. An SA chap would tolerate shopping and chick flicks for the sake of the lady, not having anything else to do why wouldn't he ?
The docile and non argumentative SA chap should be a godsend for the lady in comparison to the loud and brash non-SA fella who will only want to command and never be subdued, resulting in the lady being headbutted in the face and having a "falling down the stairs" accident. The placid SA chap would rather stand there and let his precious flower vent her anger, slam doors and let all her bad vibes out .
If there ever was to be a wedding night, between Mr SA Chap and Ms girl-about-town the lady can rest assured that the groom will definately turn up in time, owed to the fact that SA chap only has the company of maybe some online forum members for the stag night. There will be no last night of freedom bonk with a stripper for the groom, because there is no best mate who will be arranging such sordid things.

Overall the SA chap is the difinitive gentleman, shame that these gurlys don't see it that way and end up taking home some wrong'un.

Markymarky make use of these facts next time you go on the pull and emphasise how you would be a man like no other shes had before. You would make the perfect husband.

I'm sure you've cheered him up no end with that indictment! I know you've cheered me up. LOL. Anyway, I do not suffer from anxiety: I'm one of those brash chaps that you refer to. LOL!