#31
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Re: Longterm unemployed and I love it
Does it matter if they do it for selfish motives? People need care, roads need maintenance, children need educating. Whether you believe in a market economy or a socialist utopia, everyone here consumes these services and some people need to work to provide those services. To say "well I'm not doing it because I don't like working" as some have said in this thread is not a particularly endearing attitude. Not all jobs can be automated, so who chooses the unlucky punters who have to keep the rest in a life of leisure?
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#32
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Re: Longterm unemployed and I love it
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Are YOU working PRIMARILY for financial reasons or for these Moral Reasons, you refer to? Or are you (like me) really just doing it for the wage/salary cash that you get at the end of the month. Be honest mate |
#33
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Re: Longterm unemployed and I love it
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I dont (rather obviously) have any problem with folks (including myself) working for selfish reasons at all. Why would I, its simply human nature. I dont know why people have such a problem in admitting this though.... |
#34
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Re: Longterm unemployed and I love it
I agree that it is largely for selfish reasons (I don't mind admitting that the money is about 80% of why I do it, far north). There is a bit of occasional job satisfaction thankfully and some positives from interaction with the nicer people.
PS good post Schmosby. However self-reliant people think they are, they are not outside society, they live in it, people contribute to the physical and social infrastructure and to pretend they don't consume those public goods is a dishonesty. |
#35
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Re: Longterm unemployed and I love it
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#36
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Re: Longterm unemployed and I love it
I think it's probably a fallacy to imagine that a life without work is desirable or even possible,
The two things, work and play probably appear opposites, but only logically, on paper, Practically, they go hand in hand and compliment each other, .. One follows the other, and each is only achievable through the other. It's a bit like only wanting daylight and expecting that to be possible. The issue probably is that we have developed a negative attitude to work, and for good reason probably, I'm sure it's understandable. But this negative view sets you on a negative course of them and us (employer and employee ) and so on. This is perhaps based around being told what to do and how this can be perceived on a personal level and misinterpreted as a power play, ..,.there's tons of reasons why we could feel stifled by work or used by work or run down by work, but it's possibly all avoidable if people as a whole could change how they perceive work? I'm pretty sure that Van Goch didn't see painting as a chore, but more as an inherent passion, just imagine finding your passion and making a living from it, how different would that be? Changing the approach to work, breaking down the apparently rigid patterns of employment, reaching a deeper understanding of work life and personal life as being complimentary,..there's so many ways that we could no doubt turn around the situation of dreading or loathing work. I find the idea of the universal basic income (which everyone receives no matter what) opening up people's options and changing how they perceive work pretty interesting, I've mainly suffered and had a bad relationship with the world of the workplace, but I'm pretty sure that most of that has been down to my own attitude to and relationship towards it, I do wonder how much of an issue this is for other people, ..or if these negative attitudes are mainly coming as a reaction to the stress of social interaction involved in work? |
#37
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Re: Longterm unemployed and I love it
^^ very good ending there and I think I agree.
To be fair to pensioners they have paid into pensions for all their working lives so that they have something to live on when they retire (in most cases) and the state pension is a pittance. |
#38
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Re: Longterm unemployed and I love it
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Why is the non working flatmate a she and why does she suddenly get her own flat built because you got a pay rise, I have no idea how you think this relates to the current tax system! Unless you're trying to say that women who have children and need council housing are exactly the same as a person who refuses to work..... |
#39
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Re: Longterm unemployed and I love it
^ Good post Change
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#40
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Re: Longterm unemployed and I love it
^ I agree, Muteme, it isn't at all fair to guilt trip people especially when we don't have a clue about their circumstances or how they struggle inwardly.
A lot of people work very long hours doing the most boring unfulfilling jobs for which they get paid peanuts which barely cover the bills. I don't think anyone would like or want work like that |
#41
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Re: Longterm unemployed and I love it
I agree there is a moral obligation to contribute to society according to our abilities. For most of us this involves working to make ends meet, paying taxes and so on. Not everyone is able to work and it's right that those of us who can, support those who are unable. Social anxiety is of course a massive handicap in the work place and for some sufferers it's impossible to cope; I fully understand that. However, I would never regard long-term unemployment as a good thing for anyone. I'm in no way judgemental about this, in fact I feel extremely sorry for those who, for whatever reason, are unable to work or find employment. I've never liked any of my jobs over the years, hated some of them in fact, but at least they gave me some kind of structure to my life: a reason to get out of my bed and more pleasure in my free time. Long term unemployment is not something anyone should actively seek or desire because it erodes your self-worth.
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#42
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Re: Longterm unemployed and I love it
what bugs me is not that people aren't working but that people come up with some utopian ideal why they are not working, or they don't feel they should. They then typically support a party that will offer them even more money if they get into power.
And this more than an difficulty plays more role in the fact they are unemployed than the difficulty. I've actually witnessed people's real attitudes come out. Their attitude is not what can they do to aid society... but what can the government do to benefit them. However, we all got to find our bearings. No one likes being told they should work, and it would be destructive perhaps that they do work. They have to intrinsically find their reasons. Having an anxiety disorder hampers things. People find themselves in an area where they could work, but not sure how they'd find it, fear of losing their lifeline of benefits. And that's a kudos to people who work here that they've taken on the challenge and its worked out for them. Though its not always the case. |
#43
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Re: Longterm unemployed and I love it
^^ Doesn't everyone want the government to benefit them? Lots of people vote for a party that will allow them to pay less tax and contribute less to society that way.
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#44
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Re: Longterm unemployed and I love it
^ I don't think that dismissing someone's problems as 'nonsense' on a mental health forum is at all helpful either. How do you know what's going on in your house mate's mind? Or how severe his problems are! You absolutely cannot judge someone from the outside or how they might seem in a few situations.
Also it's extremely difficult to be put on ESA for a mental health problems, most people have to go through the appeals process no matter how severe their illness is and you need detailed evidence from a medical professional. Your housemate wouldn't just be put on it for nothing. |
#45
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Re: Longterm unemployed and I love it
^ I have no idea why someone would put themselves through everything people have to go through to get ESA, and the judgement from people like you, if they actually could be working.
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#46
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Re: Longterm unemployed and I love it
^ Exactly Dougella.
Just because someone goes to town daily (how do you know how much mental strength that takes him to do this?) talks to people without so much of an issue (how do you know that he isn't dying inside) and 'has a girlfriend' (It is possible for folk with even severe SA to find a supportive and loving partner thanks to the Internet) doesn't mean he a lazy work-shy .... and undeserving of ESA. There's plenty of people with mental issues who may appear fine to the outside world but behind closed doors are self harming, abusing drugs and alcohol on a daily basis and crying themselves to sleep every night. I've read of mental health sufferers who were considered to be absolutely fine because they could 'walk into town' as it were, had their ESA removed, were forced back into work then committed suicide under the pressure of it all Holding down a job is not comparable to walking into town when you feel up to it. Employers require stable employees who are well enough to turn up to work regularly, whether on full time or part-time basis, and are able to perform the work tasks in the job description to an expected level and to be worthy of the wage that job pays. It's all too easy for folk to judge others but unless we've walked in another persons shoes how can we know how anyone really feels? |
#47
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Re: Longterm unemployed and I love it
^ Spinster?
If that's what he himself says then fine and hopefully he can go into his chosen career, make money and pay taxes which cover what he's taken out in benefits. But don't try to make out that it's easy for someone to get sickness benefits because it's definitely not. |
#48
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Re: Longterm unemployed and I love it
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#49
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#50
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Re: Longterm unemployed and I love it
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As Dougella says, I hope he manages to get the career he is holding out for so that he can pay back in taxes what he has claimed in benefits. I can understand why your housemates attitude would annoy people who have no option but to work as a dogsbody in a Factory for £8 an hour. It beats me how your housemate managed to get onto ESA though as these days even the most obviously unwell have to jump through ever decreasing hoops and then are still more often than not turned away at the end of it all. Anyway, I digress |
#51
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Re: Longterm unemployed and I love it
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I should just point out that there are some EXTREMELY unwell individuals who have girlfriends/are able toleave the house and talk to people. the fact Your "Friend" is able to function in this way in no way evidence to his comitting Fraud. He may be able to do these things but still be Realistically unfit to work For the benefits of clarity, Id class someone as being "unfit to work" approximately the following way, Being unable for health reasons to perform Work tasks to the required manner reliably and long term in the manner required by an employer. If anyone (for reasons of ill health) cannot comply with the above then (realistically) they are unfit to work, and should qualify for reasonable Disability benefits. Of course if your pal has specifically told you that he is making his illness up then he IS playing the system. But if youre merely assuming this based on your personal opinions/observances and ideas then perhaps you should think again. His saying that he doesnt "WANT" to work for £8 per hour doesnt necessarily mean that he is actually "ABLE" to do so. Maybe being a little less judgmental might be an idea, Affluenza, just a thought |
#52
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Re: Longterm unemployed and I love it
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It's an interesting point, about a life without work being undesirable. I suspect for the majority of people that's true. We need work of some kind to give life meaning and purpose. But almost anything could be defined as work: raising children, caring for aging parents, reading Shakespeare's plays, learning Spanish, taking a course in Mexican cookery, teaching your neighbor's son how to fish, etc, etc. All demand time and effort. All are forms of work. If a universal basic income were introduced, and the majority of work was done by AI and machines, people would still seek out a purpose of some kind. But they would get to choose. And very few, given the choice, would spend day after day fixing other people's boilers or selling insurance. It's not work that's the terrible thing, it's the lack of freedom and choice. Most people really don't have many options. And to make it all a thousand times worse, they have absolutely no say over who they work with. In almost every street you will find someone whose life is made an utter misery by having to work with people they can't stand. And they have to spend more of their time with these as**oles than they do with their own children! The vast majority of people would say 'yes, I want work, I just don't want this kind of work.' |
#53
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Re: Longterm unemployed and I love it
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The stumbling block is accumulating the pot of money. And that's obviously a very big stumbling block. That's where the FIRE movement goes a bit bonkers saving most of their salary and earning as much as possible in as short a time as possible and investing it. It's a nice idea and has a growing fan club. If nothing else, it gives people a goal to aim for. And it's kind of fun to work out how much you think you would need to tell the boss to stick his job. |
#54
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#55
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Re: Longterm unemployed and I love it
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If you don't do your job well then you lose your customers or get fired, your children turn out poorly, your ageing parents suffer more than they should. The last four come under hobbies. If you dont take doing them seriously nothing bad will happen. |
#56
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Re: Longterm unemployed and I love it
^ That might depend on whether any of those particular things are needed as part of your job, they're not necessarily just hobbies.
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#57
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Re: Longterm unemployed and I love it
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#58
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Re: Longterm unemployed and I love it
Yes- you couldn't make it up. I know what he looks like, I know what he smells like, I know where he goes, I know what he does in the evenings, I know his attitudes, I was friends for him for a while. But I don't feel comfortable talking about someone.There is no doubt in my mind he can work. But we all have a bit of workshyness to us. All rather find the most apt job that suits us. But I also know someone, and who I identify more with- who struggles on a daily basis with anxiety. And a job for them is probably out of the question. (although it would actually help- 7 days a week with no structure can create it's own problems)
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#59
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Re: Longterm unemployed and I love it
^ So why did you go straight to the example of the person you know who has anxiety but you think could work and not also talk about the example of the person with anxiety you know who cannot work? That would have added a bit more balance and understanding to your argument in the first place!
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