What messages did you get about the world from your parents?

[Orwell20]

I'm don't just mean the things they actually said. I also mean their facial expressions, body language, patterns of behavior, and so on. Children are like little sponges, and they are programmed by evolution to soak up everything they can. Were your parents life-affirming? Angry? Misanthropic?

[Moksha]

Mother: Do all you can to avoid confrontation. If someone is rude, obnoxious, or passive-aggressive, you must try harder. And keep on trying until you've won them over, no matter how sarcastic and nasty they become. Above all, be nice to people. And do what you are told. Oh, and be passive - in the end they'll grow bored of hurting you.

Father: Avoid people whenever possible. Most of them are evil and out to rape, steal and cheat you. Trust no one. Be suspicious to the point of paranoia. The universe is malignant and cruel. Never look forward to anything; if you do, 'God' will take great pleasure in ruining it. The glass isn't only half empty, it's probably filled with warm p**s.

I don't blame my parents in the slightest. They were a product of their own parents. My mum's dad was a strict, self-disciplined Victorian. She was the only child, trapped between a sharp, unpredictable father and a mentally ill mother. The rows and tension left her with a lifelong dread of confrontation. My father's parents didn't want him. He was a quiet, bullied, neglected, angry, unloved child. And he remained like that all his life. Larkin was right that your parents **** you up. But he added that "they were ****ed up in their turn." And even my parents' parents were ****ed up. My dad's mum grew up in poverty in Deptford in the 1920s, with an alcoholic Irish father forever out of work. My mum's dad was effectively abandoned by his parents and raised by an old aunt in a Suffolk village during the Depression. What can you expect? Hopefully, in the future people will get better and better at raising children.

[Dougella]

It's hard to categorise exactly what my parents communicated to us about their attitudes towards the world. Generally they're pretty reasonable, hard working, sociable people.

My Mum unfortunately had the feeling for a very long time that she wouldn't be able to cope on her own without a man and she went through a lot of relationships, which weren't healthy, which in the end has left her being alone anyway in her 60s (and coping fine, if not better, as it happens). From this I knew what I didn't want! I didn't want to ever have to rely on a man and I didn't want to be in a bad relationship.

My Dad had a few problems work wise, as he seemed to always get exasperated with the way a company he would work for was being run and would end up leaving! He ended up working for himself for this reason, but he's still done well.

I don't think my parents gave me a feeling that I should be generally fearful of the world, so I don't know where that came from.

[Moksha]

Originally Posted by Dougella

It's hard to categorise exactly what my parents communicated to us about their attitudes towards the world. Generally they're pretty reasonable, hard working, sociable people.

Remember, it isn't just the things they say. A lot of these messages are communicated at a subconscious, non-verbal level. You're right though, it can be difficult to pin down. I guess much of the programming takes place in the first five or six years, and who can remember much about them?

When I was about 12, we went swimming with another family. I can still remember my shock and confusion at how upbeat and positive they were. My own father was so gloomy, intense and negative that in comparison they seemed high on cocaine. I can actually remember wondering what they were so happy about. I assumed something amazing had to happen before you could laugh and smile like that. The basic, fundamental message I got was 'the world's horrible and people are dangerous.'

[Dougella]

^ Yes, I mean I know anecdotally that my Mum didn't want to leave me with anyone else when I was a baby and she had planned to go back to work but changed her mind. Because we had no extended family nearby for me to form close bonds with either maybe all that had an effect on me, but I don't know ofcourse because I don't remember!


It's quite sad that your Dad had such a negative view of everything, he can't have been a happy person overall.

[Moksha]

Originally Posted by Dougella

^
It's quite sad that your Dad had such a negative view of everything, he can't have been a happy person overall.

It's strange you know, but I'm not sure he was unhappy. He was incredibly negative, I mean to the point where it became comical. If you were looking at the spring blossom, for example, he'd say "yeah, but it makes such a mess when it falls." And yet in his own way he was relatively happy. His brother and sister were the same: gloomy, miserable, negative people who'd gleefully hone in on any horrible news story. And yet, though depressing, I'm not sure they were depressed. None of them ever became addicts or attempted suicide or anything like that. Plenty of people who are upbeat and happy do become suicidal alcoholics, however.

[Dougella]

^ I suppose if you always expect the worst you sometimes get a nice surprise when things are better than you expected, maybe that's it. Or maybe revelling in negativity has it's own enjoyment in a way!

[Moksha]

Originally Posted by mutedsoul

Reminds me a bit of one of my granny's who I last met at about probably 12 years old who was always in a bad mood around me.

.

Doesn't that tell you something? (just joking!!!)

[Moksha]

Originally Posted by Dougella

^ I suppose if you always expect the worst you sometimes get a nice surprise when things are better than you expected, maybe that's it. Or maybe revelling in negativity has it's own enjoyment in a way!

You're probably right Dougella. I wonder if it's generally true that gloomy, negative people are less likely to kill themselves? In spite of the blues, they can be pretty solid and stable. They just plod along hoping for nothing and then being surprised when things go right. Maybe it's always the bouncy, emotional, high-energy types who crash and burn?

I suspect another reason is that my father was able to detach himself from the world and do his own thing. He didn't really care what others thought of him and was very much his own man. That can be a big advantage. Maybe addicts and suicides can't do this? They are deeply affected by the world around them: by rejection, disapproval, negative news stories, and so on.

[sophie123]

That I could only depend on myself from a very young age which made me not trust people,not through words through their actions.

[Moksha]

Originally Posted by Melangell

Its funny how meeting new families can open your eyes and shine a light on your own crazy upbringing, I lived with a boyfriends family for a while in my 20s and was just so taken aback that his parents were nice to him and his brother, they used to chat to them and ask their opinions and it freaked me out! My parents have never asked my opinion on anything, shouting other people down is what they enjoy

Yeah, I think this must be a common experience. Don't get me wrong, I loved my father deeply, and he had his good points. But I can remember on more than one occasion being shocked by how upbeat and happy other families seemed, and also by how open they were to the rest of the world. I guess people were surprised by my family as well. My sister's boyfriend was puzzled by her reaction when someone came to our front door. She said, in an irritated, suspicious voice, "who's that?!" But she was just imitating the way my father always reacted - hostile, angry and wary.

My mother also caused me problems. Again I have no real complaints. She was a deeply loving and nurturing person. It isn't a question of blame but of identifying negative, harmful lessons. Even today I have to fight down the urge to be nice to horrible people. That is something I learnt directly from her; it was implanted in me at an early age and I ****ing hate it. She's no different now she's in her 70s. Her neighbour is an utter ****: a sulky, rude, passive-aggressive bi**h. And the nastier she is, the more my mother creeps around her. It's pathetic to watch. But it comes directly from her childhood: she was trapped between warring parents and now cannot bear confrontation.

[Tembo]

Well my parents certainly come from that generation where you just 'man up and get on with it'.

Saying that, I've had a lot of loving support from my Mum, although I probably disagree with most of her world views. Like most people though, I didn't get much from my Dad who I don't even see any more.

Considering I had a NF-supporting grandparent, I think things could have been a lot worse with one of my parents (generally, it seems to take a few generations to filter out far-right nastiness). They are a complete hippie in comparison. (I think its important to say my other grandparents were absolutely lovely people full of kindness).

[Moksha]

Originally Posted by Change

At first I was thinking you paint a very surreal picture Moksha and I could only imagine your life being very different to "normal". But the more you write not only the more common I think your experiences are, but the more I'm realising how similar they are to mine. Much of what you said isn't far from my own experience, with both parents being very similar.

If I met you I doubt I'd suspect a thing and perhaps your family appears normal to the outside world. I know mine did but it's very dysfunctional and messages my parents gave to me no doubt has been a factor in my problems.

But what is normal? I once read an article on dysfunctional families. The author argued that most families fall into one of three types. First, there is the brutal, hostile family. The parents neglect or beat the children, the siblings bully one another, and the family itself fails to close ranks when attacked from outside. So, for example, the siblings won't defend one another at school. And when they grow up they tend to lose touch. There is a lack of love, and in general you find either abuse or indifference.

Second, the closed, suffocating family. These are full of emotional blackmail and manipulation. The children take responsibility for their parent's happiness (tick), and there is far too much clinging and co-dependency. Either the children are reluctant to grow up, or the parents don't want them to, or both. Such families tend to be hostile to outsiders: neighbors are discouraged from entering the family home, and in general it is closed to the world.

Needless to say, both are highly dysfunctional. A healthy family unit achieves a good balance between space and love. The members love and support one another, but each lives their own life and respects the other's privacy. The home is open to the world, and it is understood that should one member die, the others would go on living and pursuing happiness, free of guilt.

Probably the majority of families are ****ed up and dysfunctional. I completely forgive both my parents for any harm they did me. It wasn't deliberate. On the contrary, they loved me deeply and were heartbroken when I turned into a neurotic mess. The truly wicked, unforgivable thing is to deprive a child of love. The really messed up kids are the ones who never felt wanted or loved. Anyone who does that to a child ought to be locked away.

[anewyear]

Originally Posted by Moksha

But what is normal? I once read an article on dysfunctional families. The author argued that most families fall into one of three types. First, there is the brutal, hostile family. The parents neglect or beat the children, the siblings bully one another, and the family itself fails to close ranks when attacked from outside. So, for example, the siblings won't defend one another at school. And when they grow up they tend to lose touch. There is a lack of love, and in general you find either abuse or indifference.

Second, the closed, suffocating family. These are full of emotional blackmail and manipulation. The children take responsibility for their parent's happiness (tick), and there is far too much clinging and co-dependency. Either the children are reluctant to grow up, or the parents don't want them to, or both. Such families tend to be hostile to outsiders: neighbors are discouraged from entering the family home, and in general it is closed to the world.

Needless to say, both are highly dysfunctional. A healthy family unit achieves a good balance between space and love. The members love and support one another, but each lives their own life and respects the other's privacy. The home is open to the world, and it is understood that should one member die, the others would go on living and pursuing happiness, free of guilt.

Probably the majority of families are ****ed up and dysfunctional. I completely forgive both my parents for any harm they did me. It wasn't deliberate. On the contrary, they loved me deeply and were heartbroken when I turned into a neurotic mess. The truly wicked, unforgivable thing is to deprive a child of love. The really messed up kids are the ones who never felt wanted or loved. Anyone who does that to a child ought to be locked away.

Spookily accurate. My family growing up - 100% scenario 2. However I recognise that and my Mrs also came from a ****ed up family, so we are soooo conscious of the need to be scenario 3.

[Percy]

My dad used me as a punch bag when I was a teenager and my mum was, well shall we say less than pleasant. Messages about the world were not generally positive ones.

[Mr. Spaceman]

Originally Posted by Moksha

He was incredibly negative, I mean to the point where it became comical. If you were looking at the spring blossom, for example, he'd say "yeah, but it makes such a mess when it falls."

My dad is like that too. It might sound funny coming from some deadpan comedian on TV, but I absolutely hate it, it's soul destroying, and it's taken a lot of effort for me to reprogramme myself to be able to appreciate the positive aspects of things and people without always looking for something to criticise.

The overall message I got was the world is a scarey and miserable place where you had to put your head down and fit in, having individuality and having fun were not important and if I ever dared to suggest otherwise my mum would have a meltdown.

Add to this my parents had an absolutely horrible marriage with constant stress and fighting over every trivial little thing and I got a very poisonous view of relationships too and I cannot imagine being able to cope with one myself.

[Moksha]

Originally Posted by Mr. Spaceman

My dad is like that too. It might sound funny coming from some deadpan comedian on TV, but I absolutely hate it, it's soul destroying, and it's taken a lot of effort for me to reprogramme myself to be able to appreciate the positive aspects of things and people without always looking for something to criticise.

Yes, very true. It may sound funny, but living with that kind of negativity is exhausting. Like you I'm trying to reprogramme my brain. I can literally feel my mind searching for the downside to everything. If you were to say "nice day isn't it," my brain would automatically come up with "yeah, but the wind's ****ing annoying," or "nah, too many insects," etc. I constantly have to fight this. I hate dissing my father. He had his good points (he was kind, had a sense of humour, hated bullies, etc), but that negativity, combined with his ignorance (he'd left school at 15 and could barely read) just ground me down. Ignorance and negativity are each bad enough, put them together, however, and it's toxic. To this day I'm an obsessive autodidact, always setting myself reading lists or studying something new. And I think that is down to my childhood. Spending time with my father and grandmother was like being trapped in a small, dark cell. I'm constantly reading because I want to move as far away from that depressing ignorance as I can.

The overall message I got was the world is a scarey and miserable place where you had to put your head down and fit in, having individuality and having fun were not important and if I ever dared to suggest otherwise my mum would have a meltdown.

That's interesting. Thankfully, though my father was ignorant and miserable, he wasn't a conformist. He was very much his own man and just did his own thing. I think I've inherited that, which may explain why, though I've been desperately unhappy, I've never tried to end my life. I can detach myself from the world and resist the urge to fit in. I also resist it when people try to define or label me in some way. In a way, there is a battle going on inside me. I got two conflicting messages I suppose. My mother was a people pleaser who'd do anything to avoid conflict. She also obeyed the rules. My father was a loner who didn't give a ***t what others thought of him, broke the rules at any opportunity and always did his own thing. In that respect I want to be more like my father.

[snoo]

That's really interesting Moksha. Many things you have said could have described my own father.

One of the more depressing things is that I find myself being more like him as time goes on. Not in terms of outlook, I am in general, a positive person. But in other aspects there are similarities, for example lacking friends, maybe perceived as difficult to read, not really showing emotions.

I do wonder whether our ways of dealing with it were different. He would have had other outlets: work (he was a hard worker), children and family (he came from a large family), none of which could be said for me.

I too hate criticising and on the outset I have little cause for complaint. As a kid I had a stable upbringing, yet his own negative personality overpowered everyone elses in the family, or rather in hindsight we allowed it to. But at that time you never really know fully what is dysfunctional.

[Percy]

Originally Posted by Melangell

I don’t think anything makes me as angry as a grown man or woman hurting a child or an animal, it’s just inexcusable. Whatever happened to your dad in his own life or childhood, there came a point where he was old enough to make his own choices and decide how to behave.

Thank you Melangell.

He had (at the time) undiagnosed coeliac disease, not an excuse but might help to explain. I think he was also stressed due to difficulties with my mum and me, who at the time had undiagnosed ADHD and ASD.

None of which is an excuse but as I said might help to explain. Thanks for your response.

[Just.Fin]

Its a really hard and conflicting subject to me because I feel a lot of things about my family. I mean they are by no means bad people but they also "made me" for which I can never 100% forgive them for.

I feel like there was no way for any of us to have ever won. A lot of it is my projected self loathing. Ive never been someone I wanted to be and its hard to like the people who were such a big part of creating that....Not just on a level of interaction I think I harbour an actual grudge against them for bringing me into this world.

On the plus side in a lot of ways they seem no worse than anyone else (and they arnt there are many worse parents out there...nobody is perfect and everyone has problems), they still help me out financially even at 34 and are never actively awful to me. I think in their own way they love me a lot.

But here's the thing, they are bottom of the pack people ( I don't mean that financially ..who gives a crap about that, I mean in terms of social and happiness) and as I grew up I realised that no matter how much I wanted it to be not the case there is a kind of inevitability about that.

No matter how hard I try or how much personal growth I struggle to achieve, I too am stuck not being not a bad person...but one that nobody really ever gives much of a shit about and for whom life will be more of a resigned struggle for the crumbs rather than an opportunity.

All the strength and positive attributes you need to be in your ingredients I did not have access to. And so I fight tooth and claw to try and gain them, but really what i'm stuck with is an ingrained yellow streak a mile wide, a lot of baggage about always being kind and putting others before yourself and having to be "useful" rather than wanted, respected and import.

And the worst thing about it all is being just clever enough to know it and have a massive problem with it but not clever enough to have made the choices that would have made any difference.

I shouldn't hate them for it since they had shit upbringings and in their own way they probably did their best. But I do, because I feel like they should have done the decent thing (like I have) and realised that maybe it wouldn't be fair to continue the cycle just because it would validate my own existence. There are really obvious mental health problems on both sides that as far as I can see nobody ever even tried to do anything about...they are just weak people who ignored their problems and tried to fix their world and marriage by having kids.

Voila enter the world the sum total of these peoples problems. I honestly think it would have been kinder immediately break both legs of a new born baby and hand it to a couple with a more solid mental state than it was to let two losers with so much baggage to raise it.

Its like a constant emotional seesaw. I want to like them, love them...I feel bad that I don't but I feel like they are the route of my problems so I cant. People say you should "own your own problems" ....and I try I really do...but I didn't chose to grow up thinking the world was a bleak place and this adult is the result of that kid.