Really concerned about treating a different personality as a disorder

[BritishPeace]

What do you think?

[Dougella]

Which disorder do you mean exactly?

[Consolida]

^^ Are you talking specifically about yourself BP or people in general being diagnosed as having a mental disorder when infact it's just a personality trait?

Your title for the thread sounds interesting but could you explain a little more what you mean?

[Moksha]

It's a really good point. I can think of several people with vile personalities who are not considered 'disordered.' Why? Because they can work, form relationships and take care of themselves. That seems to be key. Freud once said that the big question was 'can this person love and work?' If they can, they must be relatively stable.

It's important to remember that, first, there is no such thing as a totally sane, 100% 'normal' person, and, second, that most people have some of the traits associated with personality disorders. In other words, most people can be a little avoidant or paranoid or narcissistic. It only becomes a disorder when the traits are so overwhelming, so all-consuming, that they dominate the personality and prevent you living the life you want to live.

I guess it really comes down to intensity. And also to the effect your personality traits have. I would describe myself as a suffering from a 'shame-based avoidant personality disorder, with paranoid and dependent traits.' This has made it difficult to work and form relationships. Yet in other respects I'm very 'normal' and sane. Indeed, I'd say I'm more compassionate and self-aware that a lot of people who can pursue a career and build a family.

[Consolida]

^ You've made some interesting points there Moksha - always plenty to ponder on

I must admit I don't completely understand what a personality disorder is because everybody appears to fit into one or more of the numerous categories that exist, which would then suggest to me that it was all just part of a 'normal' persons unique and individual personality. Or is everyone 'mad' in varying degrees?

But, as you say, is it only when someones personality traits are stopping them from living a 'normal' life such as not being able to get a job, form relationships and take care of themselves that they would be labelled as having a personality disorder? Also, is social anxiety disorder a personality disorder or something else again?

I've known of countless people who suffer with disorders that can be quite incapacitating for them in certain areas of their lives but are able to successfully hold down jobs, and/or make and maintain happy relationships, and/or raise children within a loving and stable environment. Indeed people suffering with the most antisocial and potentially dangerous personality disorder of all - sociopathy - are frequently the most charismatic, productive and successful people in our Society. I guess Freud might have called them stable psychopaths

Sorry I haven't made much sense. This kind of thing frankly does my head in

[Moksha]

Consolida ^^

You should google 'personality disorders'. It's fascinating, especially if you struggle with mental illness. So far as I understand it, social anxiety isn't a personality disorder. The closest would be an 'avoidant personality disorder,' which is what I think I have. How you distinguish between severe SA and an AvPD isn't clear. I guess it comes down to severity. But also to sub-traits. The socially anxious have a specific symptom: they feel extreme, crippling anxiety when meeting new people, going to parties, attending job interviews, and so on. I'd say I have an AvPD, however, because I don't just experience anxiety in social situations. Avoidance has become part of my life and personality. It's my first instinct. I avoid people, intimacy, travel, everything. In a sense it's like turning away from life and having as little to do with the world as possible.

I've read that something like 10% of the population have a personality disorder, though I suspect it's more like 20 or 30%. My aunt definitely has a narcissistic/histrionic PD, and I have a neighbor with what used to be labelled "a passive-aggressive PD."

I'm not sure that everyone is "mad to varying degrees," but I'd say most people are. The stable, well-rounded, self-aware, mentally-healthy people are definitely the minority. I'm convinced of that. I sometimes think that to be human is to be a neurotic, ****ed up mess. You make a really interesting point about screwed up people being able to live normal lives. This is so frustrating to me. You can't judge someone by whether they are able to "work and love," as Freud put it. There are people out there maintaining careers and marriages who are utter lunatics and completely dysfunctional. I have even read that a large number of top business people and politicians around the world would qualify as full blown psychopaths. And there are no doubt homeless alcoholics who, if they could kick the drink, would be models of sanity.

[Consolida]

^ Very interesting post Moksha, I agree with all of your points - you articulate your thoughts so much better than I

Believe it or not, I have read up quite a lot about personality disorders in the past but I still ended up feeling rather confused about it all and convinced myself that I had several! I also remember feeling quite depressed that there didn't seem to be a 'cure' for PD's as they appeared to be so deeply ingrained into the very core of a persons being so early on in their lives, thus meaning that it was very likely some unpleasant 'thing' that you had no choice but to live with. Little did I know back then, that for me at least, there was no pain free escape from the hell that is Social Anxiety.

I've never been officially diagnosed with having a personality disorder, not even avoidant personality disorder, although my social anxiety disorder (which I was diagnosed with having) is very severe. Nevetheless, I have worked in the past, have had relationships (with people admittedly as messed up as myself!) and have raised a child. These 'acheivements' would perhaps be an indicator to some that I don't have an avoidant personality disorder although without using medication as my crutch for years I know that I would have been just as avoidant as you describe yourself to be, Moksha.

If certain things trigger crippling anxiety and intense fear than it makes perfect sense to me for someone suffering with this anxiety to do whatever it takes to avoid experiencing such unpleasant feelings in the future. Personality disorders don't really come into it

Yes, I agree 10% of the population suffering with Personality disorders sounds alarmingly low! Like you say, it's got to be at least 20 or 30 % although it wouldn't surprise me if it was as high as 50%! I've known of numerous work colleagues, aquaintences, friends, partners, neighbours and family members who most definitely displayed strong narcissistic and histrionic traits amongst others.

It is indeed frustrating and unfair that some of these people who are actually quite bullying and unpleasant to others are able to live the kind of ordinary lives that a lot of people with SA can only ever dream of. Is it any wonder that (although no good comes from it) that this may lead to feelings of bitterness and resentment in some SA folk (btw, I'm not implying you or anyone else here is like this).

The trouble is, social phobics suffering with APD just aren't quite dysfunctional enough. They are kind of stuck in a no man's land, in a sort of permanent state of limbo. I can't think of a more miserable and unfulfilling place to be.
I'm afraid if you want to become a wealthy and successful high achiever with the 'beautiful' people hanging onto your arms and your every word then you need to be an absolutely deluded lunatic. Just look at Trump!!

Apparently there are more Psychopaths working as CEO's than in any other professions, followed by Lawyers, Media (TV/radio), Salespersons, Surgeons, Journalists, Police Officers, Clergy, Chefs and Civil servants! All outwardly solid, stable and respectable pillars of the community unlike us quivering neurotic wrecks who, as you so poignantly describe, sometimes find themselves living on the streets their minds addled with alcohol or drugs

F*** being a Neurotic, being a Psychopath is the way to go!


Btw, British Peace, getting back to your original question, what are you concerned about?