are you dependant on the state?

[Underground]

Originally Posted by BFG

Where is this shortage of skilled workers you speak of? Why bother to train our own population when you can import others at a far lower wage to carry out any works in this country.

The only reason there was a drive to train plumbers recently was because the government realised some plumbers were earning more than doctors and mp's and we can't have that now can we.

Any shortage of skills in the construction sector would be because all the decent builders have retired to spain and other trades have emigrated to oz nz and america where we are respected and can live a decent life. Best thing we could have done is become part of europe properly together we would have been a far stronger power than america instead we refuse just to keep the queens head on our precious pound coin.

Well you killed the plumber shortfall argument I had. I didn't realize it was a ploy to bring down average earnings in that sector. Still though, as in your experience, a return to the type of job/trade/vocational training is still preferable to just benefit handouts and a half-hearted attempt a filling any old vacancy. There is also a shortfall in Carpenters and Electricians apparently, which emigration probably has a lot to answer for, but then that's Labour for you, making them live in a country that has become alien and hostile to them. Certain management positions such as in childcare in some authorities are missing suitable candidates. Big industry might not be what is was, but there are jobs out there in different areas. Small start up companies have been responsible for 80% of new jobs for quite a few years.

Why would we be better joining Europe? You make the point about jobs being taken by migrants but joining Europe if (probably when) the Lisbon treaty is ratified would mean migration would be unlimited. There are other draw backs. Ask Cynic, he'll tell you the EU is part of the New World Order plan to end democracy. But I have to admit to being ignorant about the benefits of joining the EU. Maybe it might be a good thing, I don't know.

[Paul Ll]

I'm pretty ashamed to say I am, though I do want to work I simple can't. Would be no way I could survive without.

To answer someones question disability living allowance(DLA) is for people who need to be cared for by someone, such as getting down stairs.

[Underground]

Can someone post a link to where it says the Tories are going to scrap IB completely and just throw everyone off it as I can't seem to locate one.

[no0ne]

Originally Posted by Underground

There is also a shortfall in Carpenters and Electricians apparently, which emigration probably has a lot to answer for, but then that's Labour for you, making them live in a country that has become alien and hostile to them.

I'm a carpenter and joiner and i got sick of working on site with eastern european blokes who were buy one get one free so i jacked it in, if they want buy one get one free they can ****ing have em. There isn't a short fall in carpenters just the skilled ones. far too many people pretending to be carpenters when they aren't really, i've just checked the points system to get into oz and i'm off to pack my bags. I'm doing a degree at the mo and i don't think it's worth a wank but at least i know now.

[Johnni]

There are countless people i know who abuse the system and basically squeeze all the money they can legally aquire, annoys me as i been working since i left school.
I'd say i am not dependant on the state, only thing is my yearly opticians apps on the NHS but as i been paying taxes for yrs i'd say i'm owed that
People clamining any sort of benefit relating to their SA or any other condition that is'nt as well known or understood by GP's will in theory have a harder time if any sort of change/tightening of the benefits system were iplemented regardless of which party was in power.
At the moment it is easy to 'claim' you are depressed or stressed and have numerous months paid sick leave from work. I say claim as in my experience people have just listed a number of symptoms to their GP knowing full well they did'nt have many of them.
I'd personally hope for a more rigourous testing procedure with more qualified personnel involved who can actually diagnose mental conditions like depression etc as it in a sense devalues the impact depression can have on people. When people say they are depressed and then come back to work after a few weeks!. If you ever suffered from deperession you'd know how wrong that is lol

[Underground]

Originally Posted by BFG

I'm a carpenter and joiner and i got sick of working on site with eastern european blokes who were buy one get one free so i jacked it in, if they want buy one get one free they can ****ing have em. There isn't a short fall in carpenters just the skilled ones. far too many people pretending to be carpenters when they aren't really, i've just checked the points system to get into oz and i'm off to pack my bags. I'm doing a degree at the mo and i don't think it's worth a wank but at least i know now.

I can see where the frustration comes in and why that option appeals to some. If you go through with it I hope it goes wells for you. Oz is great country. I've worked with a lot of Eastern Europeans and to be honest I actually prefer working with them. In my experience they have all been hard working, decent people, whereas most of the English have been lazy in comparison and prefer to chat shit most of the time.

[no0ne]

Originally Posted by Underground

I can see where the frustration comes in and why that option appeals to some. If you go through with it I hope it goes wells for you. Oz is great country. I've worked with a lot of Eastern Europeans and to be honest I actually prefer working with them. In my experience they have all been hard working, decent people, whereas most of the English have been lazy in comparison and prefer to chat shit most of the time.

I've had no problem working with them and find them to be nice people i just got frustrated that they will under price you on any job and it is basically buy one get one free they will work for half my rate. They earn the money and take it home so while here will live on the cheap and be able to undercut me on prices. Local construction co's using local blokes round here cannot compete with the ones who use them as labour and have gone under because of it. How can they possibly compete?

[Wheelie Bin Bird]

Yes but only because no one will give me a damn job

[Underground]

Originally Posted by BFG

I've had no problem working with them and find them to be nice people i just got frustrated that they will under price you on any job and it is basically buy one get one free they will work for half my rate. They earn the money and take it home so while here will live on the cheap and be able to undercut me on prices. Local construction co's using local blokes round here cannot compete with the ones who use them as labour and have gone under because of it. How can they possibly compete?

Yeah, from that standpoint I can see where your coming from. I don't think that's likely to change for a while. Maybe at some point they may start being more competitive and demanding the same prices. But for now it's obviously a problem.

[Underground]

Originally Posted by Cynic

What is the purpose of posting that? Who's meant to be the troll. Me or you?

[Underground]

Originally Posted by Cynic

You're the one who can't post without resorting to insults and snide digs. Now away and play tig with the buses. I've got more important things on my mind than arguing with some forum troll.

I put something in my post about the New World Order thing. It was accurate though not meant as a dig. As you do think joining the EU is just a front for that elusive elite band of people intent on world domination. You quoted me first in this thread coming out with the usual ''whatever the masters say'' stuff and passing it off as fact. The kind of stuff I've politely asked you a few times in the past to not involve me in. You don't debate anything with an open mind at all. It's best if you just stopped quoting me at all Cynic, I think. You have a very confused outlook on events.

I love the completely irony in your posts.

[яemus]

[Johnni]

[no0ne]

Originally Posted by Johnni

[gingercat]

Thankfully not dependent on the state (at the moment - there is talk of possible redundancies here so I don't know what will happen ).

Personally I think cracking down on people claiming incapacity benefit is a dangerous road to go down, for those with mental health difficulties anyway. Sure, it sounds admirable to get the "wasters" back to work, but how are you going to tell for certain who is a "waster" and who has genuine problems? Unless there has been some major advance in psychology since I was diagnosed, there's going to be a lot of reliance on the person describing their own symptoms. How do you know whether they really have those symptoms or if they're just going through a list they read somewhere? Even appearing depressed or anxious could be an act (not to mention the fact that conversely some people with genuine problems have got very good at hiding them).

It seems to me that if you tighten things up too much to stop the "wasters" slipping through, you run a high risk of denying benefits to those who really need them. As a taxpayer (but mainly as a human) I'd rather live with carrying some wasters than live in a world where the genuinely vulnerable are denied help. Anyway, what are all these people going to do instead? It's not like there's a load of extra jobs just waiting for them at the moment.

As for the argument that we can't afford to pay these benefits... funny how there's never enough money for helping people who need it but there always seems to be enough for fighting pointless wars, building ID card databases and bailing out the rich-but-stupid :rolleyes:

[Underground]

Originally Posted by ***1103;emus

Did a funny post get deleted or something that I didn't get a chance to see?

[яemus]

Originally Posted by Underground

Did a funny post get deleted or something that I didn't get a chance to see?

Nah I was laughing at you and cynic calling each other trolls

[pboy]

Originally Posted by gingercat

How do you know whether they really have those symptoms or if they're just going through a list they read somewhere? Even appearing depressed or anxious could be an act (not to mention the fact that conversely some people with genuine problems have got very good at hiding them).

Exactly my point. The irony is that 'trying' to look anxious doesn't really work. I avoid a lot of my anxiety so I can't magic up a panic attack out of thin air. That doesn't mean I can cope with work though.

[Kevin Hodge]

i'm not dependent on the state but i'm working on it

[яemus]

Originally Posted by Underground

If they bring back thing like YTS and apprenticeships and produce more skilled workers maybe industry will increase. There is already a large shortfall of skilled workers in some sectors. Those with skills would do better for themselves than having gone straight from school to hand-outs with no vocational training since there was no incentive to do that.

Your precious tories in the 80's got rid of apprenticeships, I was a victim of this and had to end up on a crappy one year YTS, I then put myself through a vocational course at college for 21 hours a week whilst getting benefits, a very piss poor way of getting anyone into skilled work.

That is exactly why we have a lack of plumbers/carpenters/electricians/plasterers. The tories complain about eastern europeans coming in to do this work, those hypocrites were the cause of the decline of tradeskills in this country

[Underground]

Originally Posted by Remus

Your precious tories in the 80's got rid of apprenticeships, I was a victim of this and had to end up on a crappy one year YTS, I then put myself through a vocational course at college for 21 hours a week whilst getting benefits, a very piss poor way of getting anyone into skilled work.

Did you get into skilled work though in the end? What did you expect? A 50 grand a year subsidy to help you with your training? If you did find work suited to your vocational training, you did what was required and put in the effort for yourself. Which is admirable. And that was the attitude of the Tories at the time. In 11/12 years I haven't seen a wide spread re-introduction of apprenticeship schemes under New Labour.

Originally Posted by Remus

That is exactly why we have a lack of plumbers/carpenters/electricians/plasterers. The tories complain about eastern europeans coming in to do this work, those hypocrites were the cause of the decline of tradeskills in this country

You shoot yourself in the foot here. In twelve years of Labour Government, there is still a skills shortage. Are you telling me that in that time Labour couldn't have turned that around? They didn't, even though they could have done. All my lingering left-leaning sentimentality is quickly evaporating the more I see staunch left-wingers come out with fatuous remarks that don't tally with observable facts, like that one. I don't really care what the Tories did back then. In the same way that New Labour is not the same Labour party as that lead by Kinnock. You can conveniently overlook that 3 terms Labour have been at the helm and pretend that in that time they didn't have a chance to turn things around. I, on the other hand, think they should be held more accountable than that.

[яemus]

Originally Posted by Underground

Did you get into skilled work though in the end? What did you expect? A 50 grand a year subsidy to help you with your training? If you did find work suited to your vocational training

Skilled work was very difficult to get into, vocational qualifications do not give you "hands on" experience as a tradesman or engineer in my case.

50 grand a year subsidy? you really do let yourself down sometimes with these sort of snipes.

I did eventually find work as an enginner, my freind got me a foot in the door somewhere, I started on a low wage though as a "trainee" engineer although I was fully qualified, I was not great as an engineer, I'd say I just scraped by, due to lack of training I had to basically do it by trail and error, a veteran by my side whilst training would have made all the difference.

Originally Posted by Underground

You shoot yourself in the foot here. In twelve years of Labour Government, there is still a skills shortage. Are you telling me that in that time Labour couldn't have turned that around?

I don't shoot myself in the foot, you lack knowledge in this subject obviously, I will explain....An apprentice is paired up with a highly skilled veteran who teaches "hands on" experience that has been passed down through the years.

The Tories broke that chain, no new apprentices, skills died off as veterans retired, you ended up with as BFG described, lots of cowboys thinking they are qualified

[яemus]

Originally Posted by Cynic

I was speaking with someone only the other day about these trades who told me that there are plenty of qualified plasterers, decoraters etc. but no jobs available.

imaginary freinds don't count cynic

[Johnni]

What training did you receive Underground for the job you do?. Was it adequte or left you under qualified. How long ago was it that you began training.

[Underground]

Originally Posted by ***1103;emus

Skilled work was very difficult to get into, vocational qualifications do not give you "hands on" experience as a tradesman or engineer in my case.

The YTS did though for a lot of people. I do actually know the difference between vocational training and apprenticeships. I just assumed your vocational training was to do with becoming a Chef and you'd chosen to pursue something else than what you originally did on the YTS. YTS may not have worked out for some, but they did for others, although they are definitely inferior to proper apprenticeships, except for fast learners. Perhaps you should have bought up your dislike of them with BFG, who did well on it. Labour are even bigger on NVQ's and vocational training.

Originally Posted by ***1103;emus

50 grand a year subsidy? you really do let yourself down sometimes with these sort of snipes.

Please Remus, I didn't take your precious tories remark as being a dig or took exception. I exaggerated with that remark just for effect. I'll admit that it seemed to have missed your point about apprenticeships getting the boot by the Tories, if that's what you mean. But I think receiving benefits while training or studying is still in force now, and things haven't changed, people still have the same struggle, Labour ended University grants, and still there is no re-introduction of apprenticeship schemes under Labour. So I don't know why you had to make that a slight against the Tories only.

Originally Posted by ***1103;emus

I did eventually find work as an enginner, my freind got me a foot in the door somewhere, I started on a low wage though as a "trainee" engineer although I was fully qualified, I was not great as an engineer, I'd say I just scraped by, due to lack of training I had to basically do it by trail and error, a veteran by my side whilst training would have made all the difference.


I don't shoot myself in the foot, you lack knowledge in this subject obviously, I will explain....An apprentice is paired up with a highly skilled veteran who teaches "hands on" experience that has been passed down through the years.

The Tories broke that chain, no new apprentices, skills died off as veterans retired, you ended up with as BFG described, lots of cowboys thinking they are qualified

You shoot yourself in the foot but claiming that is all down to the Tories. Labour could have re-introduced them. What did Labour do instead to reverse that situation? OK it's was a bad policy from the Tories initially, in a lot of, but not all, cases back then. Lot's of immigrant cowboys that think they are qualified I think was what BFG was getting at, because they are employed as they cost less, not based on their ability. Anyway I haven't claimed the Tories can do no wrong. Just those that want to pin everything on them seems to me to be very unreasonable.

[Underground]

Originally Posted by Johnni

What training did you receive Underground for the job you do?. Was it adequte or left you under qualified. How long ago was it that you began training.

I was taught by my Dad, a master builder. On the Job training since I was a kid, with a few kicks up the arse with steel toecaps if I was out of line. The best training you could wish for.

[filo]

Out of interest, I left school in 1986 and applied via an ad in the local paper to gain a place as a YTS trainee at a Engineering training center. After an 8 week 'basic training' period in all Engneering trades i was given a placement at a local company and shortly after was offered a full blown apprenticeship in my chosen trade. I accepted and served 4 years.

This was the case for 95% of my fellow trainees too.

All I know is it worked for me and my mates. I've also worked in the industry ever since.

[Ankylopithekos]

I'd be far too shy to beg.

Originally Posted by Underground

Just those that want to pin everything on them seems to me to be very unreasonable.

Okay: all politicians are scoundrels who ought to be strung up by th'intestines.

[Sneddonia]

Originally Posted by gingercat

As a taxpayer (but mainly as a human) I'd rather live with carrying some wasters than live in a world where the genuinely vulnerable are denied help.

So would I.

[panoply]

yes but they have a hot poker on my arse at the mo, trying to get me back, which i wouldnt mind after three years of not working, im just scared of all the bigger boys at work and not having n e tin to say to them