Bullying in childhood "throws a long shadow" into victims' adult lives

[Laurel]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-23756749
From 2013, but confirms what I thought as well.

Bullying in childhood "throws a long shadow" into victims' adult lives, suggests research indicating long-term negative consequences for health, job prospects and relationships.

The study tracked more than 1,400 people between the ages of nine and 26.

School bullies were also more likely to grow up into adult criminals.

The study, from Warwick University in the UK and Duke University in the US, concludes bullying should not be seen as "a harmless rite of passage".

The long-term impact of bullying in childhood was examined through the experiences of three different groups - those who had been bullied, those who had carried out the bullying and those who had been both victims of bullying and had also carried out bullying themselves.

[firemonkey]

Very true for me . Severe mental illness. Never worked . Function significantly less well than others of matching age and intelligence .

[Laurel]

it makes sense, like if an animal or a plant is treated badly in early years it can alter how they are in later years.

[A Whimsical Stranger]

Well yes. It's always astounded me that your teenage years are when you're at your most vulnerable and you're routinely told to suck it up and deal with it.

[firemonkey]

Originally Posted by A Whimsical Stranger

Well yes. It's always astounded me that your teenage years are when you're at your most vulnerable and you're routinely told to suck it up and deal with it.

When I was subjected to quite severe verbal bullying , soon after going to Felsted , our local village vicar wrote to my housemaster about it.

In a nutshell my housemaster's response was that bullying occurred much less than it used to, but some boys lent themselves to being bullied. That was nearly 50 years ago.


I'd like to think there'd been a dramatic improvement since then , but all I've read tells me that most definitely is not the case .
Schools vying for status via league tables etc are all too willing to brush bullying under the carpet in order to maintain the school's ranking .

[gregarious_introvert]

It's impossible for me to know how much of what has gone wrong with my life stems from being bullied or from my autism. Those who are bullied usually have something different about them (in my case, autism) which is the catalyst for the bullying and that will still be with them in the future. Certainly, though, I think my anxiety stems more from the bullying than from the autism.

I was able to get jobs (however, never at the level my educational achievements would lead one to expect - something which my father told me towards the end of his life was a great disappointment to him, especially as knew how hard-working and dedicated I was in any job I held, at whatever level) but didn't manage to keep any longer than two years and I had a similar experience with relationships (mostly initiated via lonely hearts ads and internet dating) with none lasting longer than four years. However, I have always had difficulty in establishing and maintaining friendships, something which has only started improving in the most recent years.

@firemonkey: I am sure that there will be schools which will try to hide bullying, but from what little I have seen of the modern education system, many schools do seem to be working hard to eradicate bullying and to help those with "special needs", including things like socialising classes.

[A Whimsical Stranger]

Originally Posted by firemonkey

When I was subjected to quite severe verbal bullying , soon after going to Felsted , our local village vicar wrote to my housemaster about it.

In a nutshell my housemaster's response was that bullying occurred much less than it used to, but some boys lent themselves to being bullied. That was nearly 50 years ago.


I'd like to think there'd been a dramatic improvement since then , but all I've read tells me that most definitely is not the case .
Schools vying for status via league tables etc are all too willing to brush bullying under the carpet in order to maintain the school's ranking .

Sadly, there isn't much schools can do and there never has been. The issue stems from parents.

[Percy]

I'm a living example of what bullying can do to a person.

[Sisyphus]

With me I think it is a bit of a chicken and egg question.

I was brought up in a dysfunctional family, I may or may not have an ASD like issue, and I was bullied relentlessly.

If I was protected from the bullies I would probably be different but still a long way from normal.

Maybe excessive bullying in schools is a good sign that there are other issues afoot and that it would merit further investigation. That would take lots of cash and a different society. Best just brush it under the carpet.

I don't think just stopping bullying is an answer because it is more a symptom than a cause.

[AnxiousExtrovert]

Ive thought a lot about this subject before.

I think when bullying has a serious long lasting effect is when the trauma from it is confusing as to why it happened or how to deal with it. I think most people go through their life encountering a bully at some stage. Obviously there are different degrees of it and thats not to say that a physical fight and losing isnt somewhat trauma in itself.

But I think when it becomes devastating is when its confusing as to how to stop it or the reasoning behind it.

Everyone has heard the saying about lacking direction in life. When bullying creates that and makes you over question everything including your own identity and there seems no fairness or reason behind why its happening.
Another really important thing ive noticed with bullying and again it comes under the lack of direction thing is that I think its particuarly devestating when its happening to someone going through a bad time with a lack of support.

If someone has an otherwise happy life with some direction in who they are and people who will either defend or support them . Regardless of bullys actions that makes a huge difference and can even make a difference in whether the person fears confronting them, and the importance of the outcome from the confrontation.

[Sisyphus]

I'm not sure that the origins of this can be placed solely at the parent's feet. I suspect this is a generational thing, a societal thing, and probably an expression of economic efficiency.

My parents were, no doubt, part of the problem but they were victims of their history just like me. Some parents probably should not be parents.

Teachers were clearly part of my problem but again, for the most part, they were just doing what they have always done. There were some teachers who proably should not have been teachers.

Thinking about the numbers, does society lose more by ignoring the problem or does it gain by it? Is it economically inefficient to address the problem. If it was clear cut I suspect any changes would have already happened.

While, as a victim, I find the situation reprehensible I do worry that the economic realities will triumph.

[Laurel]

interesting perspectives Sisyphys. It is hard to see how it could be honestly be stamped out. In a way I think schools should somehow instill a respect culture, and that being more important than anything.

[GhostOnMagneticTape]

Originally Posted by Sisyphus

I'm not sure that the origins of this can be placed solely at the parent's feet. I suspect this is a generational thing, a societal thing, and probably an expression of economic efficiency.

My parents were, no doubt, part of the problem but they were victims of their history just like me. Some parents probably should not be parents.

Teachers were clearly part of my problem but again, for the most part, they were just doing what they have always done. There were some teachers who proably should not have been teachers.

I agree. There's a cultural, epigenetic, generational and societal issue that exacerbates children's susceptibility to developing mental health difficulties especially in adolescence.

There are many (bad) ingredients, some schools are unfortunately one of those aspects.

[Sisyphus]

Looking out of the kitchen window I see the animals doing something very like bullying. I suspect it is something from way down in the primordial brain. As it has persisted I suspect it is of more benefit than not to the species as a whole.

As with all things like this it is the outliers that come off badly and that is where I think the focus should be. An attempt to minimize the disproportionate harm caused to a minority.

I suspect trying to stop bullying across the board will be expensive and ineffective.

Focusing on identifying the individuals at both extremes and treating the cause of their issues would appear to have a higher chance of success.

The down side is that the cost of the treatment required for those individuals is likely to be high.

[GhostOnMagneticTape]

It's primordial yes, an aspect of a dominance hierarchy and survival of individuals able to adapt to stressful situations, like in the animal kingdom. If we can somehow teach children more about assertiveness and emotional intelligence, that would be a positive foundation to build upon to counter act the saddening impact of childhood trauma, suicides and bullying.

[Sisyphus]

If society wants to take steps to reduce long term harms to people I do see schools as being a good point to identify children at risk of harm.

Society has to want to do what it takes though and I am not sure it is there yet.

Without external intevention of a greater society I don't see the odds being good for any individual born into a situation like mine, even today.

[Tembo]

It’s hard to tell to what extent my childhood bullying impacts on me today. A variety of factors has led me to who I am, and maybe I would be similar even if I wasn’t bullied. However, in recent years I’ve begun to realise that childhood bullying might have had a huge impact on me.

I was bullied badly throughout primary, secondary, sixth form, and most surprisingly in the first few months of university.

It appears that many think that bullying is ‘just part of growing up’. Well, I think that’s true, but it’s more of an attitude of ‘bullying happens - just grow up and deal with it’ - that sort of rubbish. As well as people thinking that bullying is good to ‘toughen people up’ (that is an attitude I have experienced)

That said, I think things are better. I work in a primary school, and safeguarding is such an important thing - I feel we always try and hit any bullying on the head as soon as we are aware of it. Things may be different in secondary schools though, I don’t know much about that.

Things are better, but there is a long way to go.

[gregarious_introvert]

^ Why would you see autistic behaviours as "wrong"? There is nothing wrong with being autistic, however we do have to realise that others see certain manifestations of autism (the demeanour, non-verbal communication, lack of control over voice tones and volume etc.) and are unsettled by them. I didn't say that my behaviours (or at least the most obvious manifestations thereof) were wrong, all I said was that they were the catalyst for the way I was treated; in no way was I attempting to excuse the behaviour of the perpetrators.

[Sisyphus]

Hi Aleks,

I feel we always try and hit any bullying on the head as soon as we are aware of it.

I do have a worry that this will just push it (further) underground rather than actually addressing the causes.

From your experience, can you identify the persistent bullies and the particular individuals that are relentlessly bullied? Without that there seems to be little that can be done for those being damaged the most.

[AnxiousExtrovert]

I think the problem is far deeper than simply condemning bullying or regulating bullying behaviour. Bullying behaviour can be nuanced or not so obvious .

What it really comes down to is a lack of personal account when people are treating others badly. People being envious, in a bad mood, insecurities, bully or be bullied mindsets.

All these things are natural to varying degrees in everyone but I think someones sense of integrity, fairness is what usually differs from someone being a habitual bully or not.

[gregarious_introvert]

Originally Posted by imperfect_perfectionist

^Okay. The advice makes me have questions, though I can see your point and it works in real life. It also goes the other way. I think the masking and deciding to what extent you do it is probably an individual thing. As autistic behaviours aren't wrong I believe it's okay to mask and practice masking as it works but to also accept when your autistic behaviours come out.

I think that you're putting words into my mouth (well, technically, onto my screen!) here; nobody mentioned masking, which is in any case something which (from what little I understand of it) is done subconsciously, usually by autistic girls who mimic the body language of those around them (and is the main reason why autism is so much harder to diagnose in females). In fact, in the context in which I mentioned my autism (given that this is a thread about bullying, not about autism) was that it was the thing which marked me as "different" and made me a target, although I could only see this in retrospect as I started school in 1966, when the term "Asperger's" (which is what my diagnosis would have been had it happened in 2015 rather than 2016) was not even in use and "autism", for those who were aware of it, would have been applied to those further along the spectrum, who were unable to function sufficiently to be in the state school system. Even by the time I left school, in 1980, there was no understanding of these conditions and it wasn't until the mid-1990s that I became aware of a condition called "Asperger's Syndrome" (via a television documentary) and my life started to make sense, although it would then be more than twenty years before I got an official diagnosis.

Anyway, before I take this thread too far off-topic, I was not advocating masking, hiding or suppressing autistic traits; however, in the autism thread on 26th April, you, IP (if I can call you that) posted a link about how "autistics make others uncomfortable, instantly" and if that is true (which, from my experience of more than fifty years, it is) then becoming aware of what it is which sparks this instant reaction does give us the opportunity to be accepted on our own terms - whereas instant rejection doesn't. Whilst I have become aware of my own non-verbal communication and learned to read it in others (and in the process gained a greater understanding of why I was consistently rejected by everyone for the first half-century of my life), I have never hidden my autism and it was something which I stated on my meetup profile and which I made a point of expressing to those whom I met, so that when my autistic behaviours do become more apparent, they are accepted - it is much easier for others to accept them (although, of course, not everyone does) if it is not the first thing they see and if they have some awareness that they may manifest themselves.

I have also, through meetup groups which are specifically for anxiety or other disorders (including specific autism groups), plus the fact that meetup seems to attract, in this part of the world anyway, a disproportionate percentage of people with autism and similar conditions, met many more autistic people in the past five years than I had in the rest of my life - and even to me, I can understand why neurotypicals can find (especially the younger) autists threatening and unsettling. We are entitled to live the life with which we feel comfortable and if any of us feels that we are denying who we are by making small changes to our demeanour in order to create the chance to be accepted within the wider world, then of course we shouldn't make those changes; we can be true to ourselves (not that I have ever been anything else) and accept that our lives are going to be limited by our condition. Alternatively, we can learn to understand ourselves and others, remove that subconscious negative judgment which people make instantly and if we are lucky, spread greater understanding of our condition by being able to show people that we are not the monsters which we appear to be. It's no more a change than having a haircut so that we feel more presentable, or dressing nicely, or applying make-up, or anything else that we might do to create a better first impression on others.

Anyway, back on topic: during my childhood, when I was being bullied relentlessly, I wasn't aware that I had any condition which made me "different" to others, but in retrospect, I realise that my autism was the most likely reason. These days (certainly in some schools), things have changed and staff (not just teachers) are trained to look out for signs of conditions which children might have (autism, dyslexia, learning disabilities, ADHD etc.) and more children are getting "statemented" (although this in itself is not easy, with some parents having to fight for it whilst others resist because they don't want their children "labelled"). I don't have children, but I know others who do and I have seen the best (at first hand) and the worst (anecdotally) of the modern education system and I am convinced that I would have stood a much better chance of making it through the system unscarred today than I did fifty years ago; schools now are not just tackling bullying, but the root causes of bullying by trying to understand those on both sides of the equation.

[gregarious_introvert]

^ I didn't think that you were fighting with me, I just thought that you had misunderstood me a little. I have to admit that I have never heard the term "masking" applied to a conscious change of behaviour, but then I have little experience of it - but in the terms you express, then yes, I did mask, until that behaviour became natural to me.

I hadn't missed the earlier compliment, by the way, thank you! However I wouldn't say that I "take responsibility" for the bullying, since I wasn't aware of what it was about me which attracted their behaviour and the attitude of staff (in the days when it as "character forming" and would "make a man" of me) should have been different, but I have come to accept it. That part of my life was a long time ago and of course it is still part of who I am today, but I hope that it affects me far less than it did earlier in my life. Of course, I have had more than forty years to come to terms with schoolboy bullying and attempts since, at university and in the workplace, were psychological rather than physical, which is so much easier to handle.

[Sisyphus]

Cracking posts GI (as always).

I am glad to hear from you that you think things are getting better in schools. I only hear "the worst (anecdotally) of the modern education system". My attempts to discuss the current approach to bullying with the teachers who make up most of the local book club I used to go to went down like a bucket of cold sick.

Part of the difficulty I have with how I see the modern system is that I am currently unpacking the repressed memories of the past and I find I am possibly neither as unbiased nor disinterested as I could be when discussing that subject.

In the end I found my own solution during the first year of A Levels. Basically (nearly) anyone who casually punched me in the back of the head was met with a deranged berserker, blood and snot everywhere, which always attracted a crowd and eventually a teacher.

All through school I was the one who was punished for being the victim. This time there was nothing, I didn't even have to clean up the blood. Each time, the day just carried on as if nothing had happened.

Looking back now I feel a bit sorry for them. They weren't the real psycho bullies (who were the 'nearly') they were just casually punching me in the back of the head because 'well, didn't everyone? '. They weren't expecting that.

I guess word got around and at least the physical violence dropped off to next to nothing. The damage had been done though.

[seb92]

Originally Posted by Laurel

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-23756749
From 2013, but confirms what I thought as well.

This seems like one of the many of these studies that didn't need to be done it's so obvious, just ask anyone that has experienced it.

Sure many of you like me have these problems because of stuff you experienced at school.

[Pink*Lady]

Yep I've always been bullied and I'm being bullied in work at the moment. So fed up of it.

[Utopia]

Yeah this seems obvious to me, bullying is real and will never be completely eradicated, but over time, there is some evidence to suggest things are (slowly) improving, but I feel that people then just abuse others within the law, and it's human nature to an extent.

Some people are completely intolerant of bullying though, I remember my form tutor from years 9-11 always gave us a lecture on how he was bullied for his scottish accent on moving to England, how awful it was and how he wouldn't tolerate it. One thing I've noticed is that bullies are often hypocrites, or at the very least they are basically expressing fears they have about themselves quite often. I have never felt much need to bully really, my empathy for others quite easily overrides the need for normality, but I do catch myself saying something because I'm in a bad place myself btw, or something that's funny, but even with humour I prefer to make fun of myself or a situation rather than at other peoples expense. Some people that bully are just basically sociopaths or may even be pure psychopaths with no (legal) way of exerting control over others, and this is what worries me, because it does seem to simply be a way of dealing with insecurity or a weak situation they are in themselves. Like I said though it is an aspect of human nature, but some people are focused on improving themselves, and others on bringing others down, but the species as a whole will achieve more if we have more of the people that try to improve themselves, rather than bring others down - this way society will progress better as a whole. This is a reason I feel that, however slowly, the species will evolve to be less cruel over time, because some of us feel no need to do this. If I wasn't bullied I would have achieved a lot more, there is no doubt about that in my mind, that really doesn't take away from others wellbeing in the long run, but instinctively some people treat others success as somehow taking away from their own, when this isn't always the case. In fact in many areas success for others means greater success for society - for example in areas such as medicine or engineering. We all live better lives today because of the successes of others in the past and thus need to continue for society as a whole to be more successful.

[Sisyphus]

It might be obvious but good science still demands that it is tested.

Many things that are obviously undesirable remain prevalent in society, just look at the news.

Good science and reporting can keep things in the news and make change more likely. Societal inertia takes quite a bit of pressure to overcome. If it is something that is happening to a minority it is even harder. It becomes 'someone else's problem'.

[AnxiousExtrovert]

I think first off the topic of this thread being that bullying can leave mental scars is a given really. Anything that causes a crisis in confidence has an effect on people.

Each case usually has to be judged individually to know exactly the reasons for the bullying and just how unfair or malicious it is. Although there are definitely certain circumstances that seem a pattern behind most types of bullying.

Most bullying Ive seen go on in my life is nearly always ego and control related. I think the difference between habitual bullies and others is the processing of empathy and fairness.
Some people have their nose put out of joint very easily and dont seem to have any checks or even care where the other person is coming from or if he deserves your wrath. Its all me me me besides one thing, they are often careful not to be like that if they think it may backfire or the person is of importance (Boss etc).

Thats likely where the bully or be bullied comes from and there is some truth in it but thats an extreme form of self defence and makes the problem worse if everyone adopts that. Whenever I see someone (which there are many) who show extreme differences in how they treat different people it registers with me that the person is a good chance it isnt someone I would trust much.